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Originally posted by RogerB:
Didn't read the article, but I'd like to comment on Big B's comments.
I'm not sure capitalism is anti-Christian. In fact, I'm sure it isn't. I am sure that a lot of socialists want you to think so.
Didn't mean to imply that capitalism was anti-Christian. However, I stated that we in America have sort of merged capitalism and Christianity to create a "hybrid" religion. This was one of the points of the article that I identified with. At my church the pastor does have sermons on how debt, personal finances, and other monetary matters.
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Originally posted by Big_B:
Originally posted by darpinian:
Economics doesn't just crap on the fact that poor people are a drain on society rather economics needs those so called "drains" on society for the theory to make sense...otherwise you have communism.
How so? This makes no sense.
I think Darp may be confusing Capitalism and Economics. Capitalism is a market system. Economis is the study of market forces and systems.
I tend to agree with Big_B's points; maybe its becuase I too have a Economics Degree. I too am christian, however, I do not provide handouts to those who beg. These persons do have other options that can allow them get on their feet, a job and begin to contribute to our market system and to society. Freeloader tend to cause nothing but our decline.
As a christian and business person, I believe strongly in helping your fellow man, but not support them. Myself and the company I work for have and do provide assistance to those in our community that have fallen on hard time, commonly through no fault of their own. I have helped people find jobs, helped them get to their jobs. Tutored highschool dropouts to help them get their GED, and even opened my house so that some of those that needed assistance had a place to stay while they got back on their feet. These persons are to contributing members to society and our market system, no longer a 'freeloader'.
I just wonder howmany of you that cry fowl and have condemed Big_B have opened up to charity, not for the tax breaks or 'Tis the season, or any envogue disaster, such as the Tsunami of Katrina. But rather because you wanted to as it is part of your 'christian belief' or whatever... 
edit: In addition I do not understand the claim the Capitalism is Anit-Christian. While the basic premise of Capitalism is to act in ones own self interest, what's so Anti-Christian about that?
Where do God say that we are not to act in our own interest? You can even make the argument that God Himself acted in his own self interest by sacrificing His son to save His ccreation.
Last edited by TheAlmightyMe; 09/28/05 08:11 PM.
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Originally posted by RTStabler51:
Because anything you post IMO has no values in it, since you yourself do not value anything but yourself.
And you can feel free to keep that narrow-minded point of view I suppose, since I tire of defending myself against you.
Originally posted by Davo:
Originally posted by Davo:
Posting such an article without starting any kind of discussion is flamebait. Which, I should remind everyone, is a bannable offense.
Originally posted by Rishodi:
I well remember that you are one of the several people who attacked me personally in previous threads, and this post was largely for you.
Flamebait you say? No, I'm starting a discussion, which so far seems to be going reasonably well, while trying to get across to certain people the fact that I am neither anti-Christian nor anti-American. I'm beginning to understand, however, that certain people here have already stereotyped me and there's nothing I can do now to change that.
Originally posted by Viss1:
I've been told that believing Christ died for our sins is a guaranteed path into Heaven. A little ambivalence towards the less fortunate wouldn't seem to be a huge problem under that philosophy.
Maybe so, but maybe not. I myself would think that there is a good deal more than just belief involved. For one thing, you seem to be forgetting about the little passage from Matthew 25:31-46. Please look it up ;-)
And a few others: James 1:22, John 15:5-6, James 2:17, Matthew 7:21-23. Just in case.
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Regarding the new Orleans discussion, I don't think many people can comprehend what N.O. is all about. Let me explain why N.O. can never be compared to many other cities.
I have lived there and so has my father's side of the family. It's a town full of people who know nothing about the outside world. Many of them know only about New Orleans and the area around it. They don't take vacations to California, New York, Texas; they go to Slidell or maybe Baton Rouge. The question is, is it my right as a Christian to help them or should I condemn them as a capitalist and say that they need jobs? What if there are no jobs? Obviously there are very few right now.
This is the problem I have with the "capitalist" stand on things. Capitalism is extremely short-sighted. Yes, money is great, but what happens when that money is swept away by an un-controllable force? Christianity is a way of life which explains that it is wrong to horde possessions, because there is a good chance you will lose them, and then you will become what you so hated. This hatred is what Jesus came to show us. He gave up his own life, something you obviously value over even money, to show that even the most important thing in your life can be taken away by an un-controllable force.
Let's say you lost your house to the hurricane and have no money because your assets were literally washed away. Don't give me this "I am prepaed for anything, blah blah" because I've heard it before and seen it fail. Since you told me that you pass up "bums" because they are too lazy to get jobs, what makes it any different that I see you as this bum and push you aside like yesterday's garbage? Had I stopped to help you, I would have realized that you are intelligent and know things I might not. I might even give you a job. You do not see the future when you look only for money, and this is what Jesus was trying to tell you. "Stop, help others, and in return, you will be helped." Of course it's hard, but making money or getting an education isn't usually easy is it?
Last edited by Majisto; 09/28/05 08:41 PM.
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Originally posted by Rishodi:
Flamebait you say? No, I'm starting a discussion, which so far seems to be going reasonably well, while trying to get across to certain people the fact that I am neither anti-Christian nor anti-American. I'm beginning to understand, however, that certain people here have already stereotyped me and there's nothing I can do now to change that.
What discussion did you start? All you did was post an article. Those who responded are the ones that started the discussion. Since your post simply contained an article some may consider inflammatory, and no opening of discussion, your post was flamebait.
Stereotyped? Stereotyping is done only with limited input. I think we have plenty of information to classify you the way we do. The claim of being stereotyped is usually a defense mechanism against reasonable judgement that those being judged are uncomfortable with.
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Originally posted by Big_B:
At my church the pastor does have sermons on how debt, personal finances, and other monetary matters.
of course he does. the tithe basket depends on it. last couple times i went to church it seemed like they were passing that thing around for the whole service.
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Originally posted by Majisto:
Regarding the new Orleans discussion, I don't think many people can comprehend what N.O. is all about. Let me explain why N.O. can never be compared to many other cities.
I have lived there and so has my father's side of the family. It's a town full of people who know nothing about the outside world. Many of them know only about New Orleans and the area around it. They don't take vacations to California, New York, Texas; they go to Slidell or maybe Baton Rouge. The question is, is it my right as a Christian to help them or should I condemn them as a capitalist and say that they need jobs? What if there are no jobs? Obviously there are very few right now.
This is the problem I have with the "capitalist" stand on things. Capitalism is extremely short-sighted. Yes, money is great, but what happens when that money is swept away by an un-controllable force? Christianity is a way of life which explains that it is wrong to horde possessions, because there is a good chance you will lose them, and then you will become what you so hated. This hatred is what Jesus came to show us. He gave up his own life, something you obviously value over even money, to show that even the most important thing in your life can be taken away by an un-controllable force.
Let's say you lost your house to the hurricane and have no money because your assets were literally washed away. Don't give me this "I am prepaed for anything, blah blah" because I've heard it before and seen it fail. Since you told me that you pass up "bums" because they are too lazy to get jobs, what makes it any different that I see you as this bum and push you aside like yesterday's garbage? Had I stopped to help you, I would have realized that you are intelligent and know things I might not. I might even give you a job. You do not see the future when you look only for money, and this is what Jesus was trying to tell you. "Stop, help others, and in return, you will be helped." Of course it's hard, but making money or getting an education isn't usually easy is it?
In regards to your last paragraph, allow me to re-iterate something I stated earlier:
As a christian and business person, I believe strongly in helping your fellow man, but not support them. Myself and the company I work for have and do provide assistance to those in our community that have fallen on hard time, commonly through no fault of their own. I have helped people find jobs, helped them get to their jobs. Tutored highschool dropouts to help them get their GED, and even opened my house so that some of those that needed assistance had a place to stay while they got back on their feet. These persons are contributing members to society and our market system, no longer a 'freeloader'.
In the instance of Katrina, these are persons that do need assistance, and no, I do not feel they should be passed by. I have not ignored these persons, and niether should the rest of us.
People that now have nothing due to a catastophic natural disaster are not economic 'freeloaders'. These are not persons begging for handouts because they choose to disassociate themselve from the socio-economic culture of this nation. They are begging and asking for assistance as they have NOTHING else. The bum on the street corner and the marooned citizens of New Orleans are two completely different creatures that I do not combine. If my earlier statements made it sound as such, that was not my intent ad I do apologize for such.
I do not see capitalism as short-sighted. I do agree that there are a multitude of business professionals that do only look for the short term immediate gains. However various, businesses do look for the long term. One way is the educational benefits and reimbursements some companies pay out. However, in terms of capital appreciation, companies do tend to focus on the short and mid-term due to the pressures of their investors for large fast returns instead of steady long returns.
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Originally posted by TheAlmightyMe:
Where do God say that we are not to act in our own interest? You can even make the argument that God Himself acted in his own self interest by sacrificing His son to save His ccreation.
There's a difference between self interest and selfishness. Just wanted to throw that out there.
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Originally posted by Majisto:
Regarding the new Orleans discussion, I don't think many people can comprehend what N.O. is all about. Let me explain why N.O. can never be compared to many other cities.
I have lived there and so has my father's side of the family. It's a town full of people who know nothing about the outside world. Many of them know only about New Orleans and the area around it. They don't take vacations to California, New York, Texas; they go to Slidell or maybe Baton Rouge. The question is, is it my right as a Christian to help them or should I condemn them as a capitalist and say that they need jobs? What if there are no jobs? Obviously there are very few right now.
If it is so bad, what were they doing there? Get on a bus or something and move somewhere that you can get a job. The fact is that our welfare society does nothing to encourage "poor" people to pursue their self interest.
I live next to a guy who purposely works only 12 hours each week so that he can earn just the right amount of income to still receive his welfare reimbursement. He will never have anything because by using his screwed up rationale he has condemned himself to a life just above the poverty level. Every city in the country is full of these so called "poor" people.
I did speak with a woman from New Orleans last week on my lunch hour. She left after the hurricane and came here. What was she doing here? Getting a job (probably low paying, but a job anyway), finding an apartment, taking care of her 2 small children. I had nothing but respect for this young lady. There is a difference between simply being poor or facing unfortunate circumstances and being a complete nuisance on me and the rest of society.
Originally posted by Majisto:
This is the problem I have with the "capitalist" stand on things. Capitalism is extremely short-sighted. Yes, money is great, but what happens when that money is swept away by an un-controllable force? Christianity is a way of life which explains that it is wrong to horde possessions, because there is a good chance you will lose them, and then you will become what you so hated. This hatred is what Jesus came to show us. He gave up his own life, something you obviously value over even money, to show that even the most important thing in your life can be taken away by an un-controllable force.
I think there is a big gap in perspective here. When I talk about economics and capitalism, I am not talking about a love of money. I am talking about a set of theories and models that explain the way that markets all interact. It has something to do with money, but that isn't the big picture. Free market capitalism happens to work very well.
The issue at hand is that Christ tells us help the poor, while economics tells us that welfare systems and subsidies for the poor do the absolute opposite. They don't help the problem, they make it worse. New Orleans is a wonderful example and should enough proof without this discussion.
Originally posted by Majisto:
Let's say you lost your house to the hurricane and have no money because your assets were literally washed away. Don't give me this "I am prepaed for anything, blah blah" because I've heard it before and seen it fail. Since you told me that you pass up "bums" because they are too lazy to get jobs, what makes it any different that I see you as this bum and push you aside like yesterday's garbage? Had I stopped to help you, I would have realized that you are intelligent and know things I might not. I might even give you a job. You do not see the future when you look only for money, and this is what Jesus was trying to tell you. "Stop, help others, and in return, you will be helped." Of course it's hard, but making money or getting an education isn't usually easy is it?
If I wouldn't have spent the better part of my adult life smoking crack,making babies, and collecting welfare checks I would have been better prepared. Where does your money go when you choose to donate? Do you believe that it really accomplishes what you intended it for? I do sympathize with these people because their life is all they know. They think collecting government money is the only thing available to them. Their parent did it, they do it, and their children will do it as well. I will gladly help the poor if you show me how, but throwing them more money does nothing for the problem.
I go back to my recent statement... what should I do when I pass 3 or 4 separate "poor" people asking me for money as I walk to the corner store? If I give them money, they will simply ask for more next time, and this is how they spend their life. What would you do?
My opinion is if you are going to smoke crack, at least get a damn job to pay for it. Don't ask me for a dollar and don't use my tax dollars either.
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