My point is this: Their price for a "full" system (headers & Y-Pipe) is not less, BUT MORE than SHM's where when they where being sold. They have only proven marginal gains over MSDS considering the price difference. If you treated your car like a "business of horsepower", the Return On Investment just isn't there ... the hp per $ ratio is horrible. Don't get me wrong, I see the market & desire for long tube headers for our cars, but what's the point really if it costs an arm and leg ... we already have that with SHM!