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Originally posted by RTStabler51:
I was listening to some Malek (one of Farrahakan's cronies) guy yesterday on Hannity's talk show about how the US Government blew up the Maine, a ship in the Gulf of Tonkin, and now the levee's.
Maybe Malek should be informed that the USS Maine was blown up in Havana harbor in 1898 (starting the Spanish-American War), and the event in the Gulf of Tonkin happened in 1964 and involved ships of the 7th fleet including the USS Maddox and the USS Ticongeroga. No American ships were sunk, or indeed even hit with anything. The skipper of the Maddox thought he was being fired upon and decided to fire back at what he thought were attackers. To this day, Vietnamese officials are clueless as to who attacked the American ships, if anyone did. There was also no evidence afterwards that the Maddox was actually fired upon.
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Originally posted by sigma:
It's one reason why federal agencies were so incredibly flabbergasted and lost on what to do -- the plans didn't call for so many people still being left in the city and they certainly didn't call for so much lawlessness that diverted a lot of resources to deal with. That was all supposed to have been taken care of.
This bears repeating.
"Think of it, if you like, as a librarian with a G-string under the tweed." Clarkson on the Mondeo.
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Originally posted by JaTo:
But seriously, though: Why in the Hell are you trying to defend this clown?
not really trying to defend him (he screwed up too) as much as pointing out that this brand of summary judgment by you and others is interestingly ironic. mostly because there's a larger disaster than nola and the gulf going on in iraq and you guys aren't calling for the dragging out and hanging of bush. what's up with that?
admittedly a tangent, but never the less an opportunity to point out the hypocritical (to me) nature of your rant compared to the fubar situation in iraq and lack of even criticism levied against politicians when they're screwing up. that's all. 
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thats one hell of a tangent to get to your original thought!
made for an interesting read though!
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Originally posted by Antonio Wright:
Originally posted by Corbett:
Originally posted by BP:
Originally posted by Corbett:
Between him and the spineless Governor I would have to say yes, what happened after the disaster was their fault. they have know for how long that this would eventually happen and when it did they have no plan whatsoever.
how is what happened after the disaster their fault? i need to know this cause i don't see it.
Because they knew those levies would break eventually and did not even have a plan once they finally did break! Thats how.
It is so easy to say that after the fact.
It was even easier before the fact. At a time when federal funds were allocated to the state and local governments for the mantainance of the levies - but diverted by guess who, state and local government.
'96 Mystique Irish Edition (Black & Tan) V6 5 speed
"Our strategy is basically to kill the insurgents when we come across them."
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Originally posted by BP:
not really trying to defend him (he screwed up too) as much as pointing out that this brand of summary judgment by you and others is interestingly ironic.
How? Like I said, bad intel didn't cause Katrina, nor did Mother Nature fool around with the UN for over a decade. Others in this post can easily put two and two together and figure out that the situations are COMPLETELY different; why can't you?
I'm not bringing up Clinton's abysmal handling of the Branch-Dividian compound in Waco, TX. Why? Because it has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Nagin and his ineptitude.
Originally posted by BP:
mostly because there's a larger disaster than nola and the gulf going on in iraq and you guys aren't calling for the dragging out and hanging of bush. what's up with that?
Because Bush isn't utterly alone in thinking at the time that Iraq constituted a clear threat; 3/4 of the US population did, the House, Congresss (Dems and Repubs) and damn-well over 60 countries did.
A lack of action didn't cause the current quagmire in Iraq; action based on faulty intel and the selective use of it did.
Originally posted by BP:
admittedly a tangent, but never the less an opportunity to point out the hypocritical (to me) nature of your rant compared to the fubar situation in iraq and lack of even criticism levied against politicians when they're screwing up. that's all.
I understand completely; I once used to do my damndest to change the subject and play the "moving target" game when I totally sucked wind in creating a well-thought argument in high-school debate, but I grew up and found that confronting the issues head-on gets more done, cuts through the BS and wastes less time.
I know a dodge when I see one, artful or otherwise...
Last edited by JaTo; 09/21/05 12:58 PM.
JaTo
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Originally posted by JaTo:
A lack of action didn't cause the current quagmire in Iraq; action based on faulty intel and the selective use of it did.
Sorry for the divergence, but an important point on that issue must be brought out...
JaTo, even you are buying into the faulty intel BS?? Say it ain't so!
I've said before the intel is a non-issue because we had declarations with discrepancies as proof of WMDs in Iraq. We didn't find much in the months following the invasion, but that doesn't mean the WMDs were never there. Those materials will turn up somewhere eventually - just like the radio active stainless steel that was being recycled in Europe and traced back through Jordan, Syria, then Iraq.
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Pesonnally, I think the Iraqi WMD will be on a future episode of History's Mysterys on the History channel. Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by JaTo:
A lack of action didn't cause the current quagmire in Iraq; action based on faulty intel and the selective use of it did.
Sorry for the divergence, but an important point on that issue must be brought out...
JaTo, even you are buying into the faulty intel BS?? Say it ain't so!
I've said before the intel is a non-issue because we had declarations with discrepancies as proof of WMDs in Iraq. We didn't find much in the months following the invasion, but that doesn't mean the WMDs were never there. Those materials will turn up somewhere eventually - just like the radio active stainless steel that was being recycled in Europe and traced back through Jordan, Syria, then Iraq.
Ryan
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Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by JaTo:
A lack of action didn't cause the current quagmire in Iraq; action based on faulty intel and the selective use of it did.
Sorry for the divergence, but an important point on that issue must be brought out...
JaTo, even you are buying into the faulty intel BS?? Say it ain't so!
I've said before the intel is a non-issue because we had declarations with discrepancies as proof of WMDs in Iraq. We didn't find much in the months following the invasion, but that doesn't mean the WMDs were never there. Those materials will turn up somewhere eventually - just like the radio active stainless steel that was being recycled in Europe and traced back through Jordan, Syria, then Iraq.
I'm buying into it to a small degree. I've always held the premise that we had authorization to go in with what the UN Security Council had in hand at the time (given they weren't about to do jack-s**t), as it was entirely up to Hussein to prove that he didn't have them and that he had to present a transparent view of Iraqi capability. The UN tallies stood by themselves and the fact that Hussein was coming up short by hundreds of tons everytime was grounds enough.
What continues to bother me is the "Christmas ornaments" that the Bush administration insisted on hanging around the key issue; Al-Qaeda links in Iraq (VERY shaky and circumstantial at best), the premise that Iraq was months, not years away from meaningful nuclear weapons development, etc., etc. What even further bothers me is how the CIA facilitated these views; granted, I think George Tenet had a pre-disposed view towards Iraq (much like the Bush administration) and presented a lop-sided case that wasn't a full disclosure.
How else do we explain Powell in front of the UN? How do we explain mis-statement after mis-statement on Iraqi weapons capabilities from Rumsfeld? How do we explain the "slam dunk" comment from Tenet?
No, we had solid reasoning to go into Iraq before all of this but in the process shot ourselves in the foot and it was the CIA feeding material up the chain that steered decisions...
JaTo
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