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not necessary you're right on that one.
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Quote:
the point of this thread is to bash the mayor for supposedly going against FEMA when a hurricane threat is near. that's not case based on the information i've seen.
That's not the problem at all. FEMA and others in the federal government were pissed at Nagin about announcing people to return long before Rita was ever a threat.
The problem is that NO has no 911-service (it might get it in the next day or two), it has no fuel, it has no food, it has ONE fully-operating hospital, there's little power, emergency response services are virtually nil even if you could call them (which you can't), intersection lighting doesn't work, power-lines are down everywhere, the water isn't potable... Need I continue? You might as well be moving 3/4-million people right smack dab into the middle of a 500-square-mile septic tank.
Did you know that up to 75% of a hurricane's casualties occur during cleanup? People hurt themselves doing work, get dehydrated, get heatstroke, cut off limbs with chainsaws, catch nasty diseases, car accidents are rampant -- and you're going to have all that in a city with no immediate emergency response and one hospital? You've got to be [censored] insane.
Nagin himself is apparently entirely clueless about the state of his city and the extent of damages and the time it will take to repair. That's what the problem is. He's a [censored] moron.
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Originally posted by BP:
Originally posted by JaTo:
I dare you to tell me that they weren't warning the Southern states that they were in for a Hell of a ride long before Katrina made landfall...
when did they issue the warning to NO that they would be taking a direct hit? was it enough in advance for FEMA or locals to plan and execute evacuation of the areas expected to be hit?
Mayor Nagin got a call at home from the head of NOAA on Saturday late afternoon to make sure he understood what was coming. He got around to ordering the evacuation late Sunday morning.
Your whole point of there's no way you could plan an evacuation on limited notice is the whole reason why there should have been proper emergency evacuation planning by the LOCAL GOVERNMENT years ago. Once there's a proper plan the execution of it can be simple and if properly planned done within the notice you'd expect to receive for a hurricane.
Scott
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i understand that. if he's inviting people to come back permanently to areas which can't support any type of temporary presence at all then you're right. i honestly haven't seen that though.
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Originally posted by BP:
why are you guys trying so hard to make this a race issue?
Hey, you are the guy defending an acute degree of incompetence here; not me. I'm lambasting the guy for it and his attitude...
...just like I did Michael Brown. Despite his name, he's most assuredly "white as bread" so feel free to shove the racial connection up your posterior where it belongs.
Originally posted by BP:
got something to get off your chest about black people? dont' be shy about it!
No, just getting my aggrivation aired out with pariahs and the idiots that suck up to them...
Originally posted by BP:
if you want to make it into a race issue talk about why most of those people who couldn't escape are poor and black and why they didn't get more help when the evacuation orders were issued. that's more of a race issue than your tirade.
You just LOVE punching holes in your own boat, don't ya? Ring up Mr. Nagin and ask that question, since there was a BLOODY field of busses that could qualify for it's own zip-code that the STATE and LOCAL numbskulls didn't think of using or even PLAN on using for evacuations. Ever heard of a call-list for evacuations? FL has; LA damn-sure hasn't.
The failure has NOTHING to do with race; it has EVERYTHING to do with abysmal planning, poor leadership and a pair of clowns heading the state and local efforts in LA and N.O.
So, tell me again why you've jumped into this?
Originally posted by BP:
the GOV of LA and the mayor of the hardest hit city in mississippi all have the same issues with the handling of this disaster.
The difference is that at least one has the presence of mind not to NOT recklessly throw blame around and push responsibility off on everyone but themselves for a LACK OF PREPARATION.
Originally posted by BP:
because your post says that he's going against the recommendations of FEMA to evacuate when that's not the case.
Here's a clue; Nagin and the governor of LA ignored everyone about Katrina until it was WAY TOO LATE! They have a freshly-documented history of doing so. It took Thad Allen of FEMA jumping the gun to publicly air a request to HALT the N.O. re-population before Nagin chimes in...
Originally posted by BP:
you're part of the posse that supports not questioning our gov or supporting their case when they've made bad decisions. and even though you're singling out the katrina disaster i'm referring to a disaster much larger than that. and you know what i'm talking about. tough guy.
Utter, complete, absolute BS. Iraq is a mess and I've said as such; given the intel that we had at the time and in-hand, it WAS (bolded for those with recurring reading-comprehension problems) the right decision.
It was proven not to be, which I've said over and over again when the writing was on the wall. It's become something entirely different that what it started out and "bailing" out now will only make matters worse.
Nice try for a tangent, by the way.
Originally posted by BP:
and i didn't see you saying that bush should be drug out into the street and stoned for the iraq disaster even though it's much worse than anything good ol ray could have done.
Maybe because there's over 3/4 of the country at the time that thought the move was the correct one. Any Neanderthal with half a cranium intact can tell that bad intel and the selective use of such didn't lead to Katrina sneaking up on LA...
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Originally posted by BP:
i understand that. if he's inviting people to come back permanently to areas which can't support any type of temporary presence at all then you're right. i honestly haven't seen that though.
That's as much the fault of the media now as anything. I imagine there's been an interest in getting some feel-gooders on the air about bars opening back up and so forth, but it kind of subverts the reality of how primitive the living conditions are right now in New Orleans. I was looking at a blog today that has been running since Katrina hit and the blogger was amazed that Nagin had been suggesting that people could return, since the city is effectively DOA at this time.
http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/
Last edited by Jeb Hoge; 09/20/05 08:46 PM.
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when did they issue the warning to NO that they would be taking a direct hit? was it enough in advance for FEMA or locals to plan and execute evacuation of the areas expected to be hit?
First off, New Orleans didn't take a direct hit. In fact it actually got a MUCH WEAKER hit than NOAA was saying it would since it moved much more eastward than anticipated causing the significantly stronger east side of the eye-wall to hit about 50 miles east of New Orleans.
Secondly, NOAA was predicing a hit that would cause Category 3 Winds and Surge (which the NO Disaster Management Agency knew had a good chance of causing levee failure) by 10am on Saturday morning -- that's, quite simply, as good as it gets for hurricane prediction. By 10pm Saturday evening they were predicting a 26% chance of a direct hit within 48 hours -- that's the single highest percentage on their strike probabilty chart.
Nagin did nothing. However neighboring parishes began mandatory evacuations -- a full 24 hours before Nagin authorized them in New Orleans proper. Other leaders could take the hint.
By 10am Sunday morning, 24 hours before the hit, NOAA issued an unprecedented advisory that said, quote "MOST OF THE AREA WILL BE UNINHABITABLE FOR WEEKS...PERHAPS LONGER and "WATER SHORTAGES WILL MAKE HUMAN SUFFERING INCREDIBLE BY MODERN STANDARDS.. (Caps emphasis is their own, as all advisories are in).
Only then with absolute dire predictions from NOAA, did Nagin issue a mandatory evacuation and execute the plans laid out by the New Orleans Disaster Management Office -- too little, too late.
Don't even try to make it out like NOAA didn't do their part. They did all they could with the best technology and experience available on this planet to predict the storm accurately and get the people of New Orleans to evacuate, finally taking the unprecendented step of putting essentially Doomsday language into their Advisory hoping they'd finally take the hint.
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Originally posted by JaTo:
...just like I did Michael Brown. Despite his name, he's most assuredly "white as bread" so feel free to shove the racial connection up your posterior where it belongs.
i didn't bring race into this discussion so don't get mad and all posterior like on me. my whole point is that it's easy to monday morning qb this issue and isolate blame as you're doing now. answer me this: if everyone had done their job perfectly with the exception of nagin would NOLA be in the situation it is now?
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Originally posted by BP:
i understand that. if he's inviting people to come back permanently to areas which can't support any type of temporary presence at all then you're right. i honestly haven't seen that though.
Last Thursday the mayor announced he was allowing approximately 182,000 people (the population of 8 ZIP codes) to return to the city. Not to come in and clean -- to come in and stay. That's 1/3 of the population of the entire city.
He said that by September 26th, the French Quarter would be fully-powered and re-opened for tourism (I swear to God he's gotta be on something), despite warnings that warnings that being hasty in returning the power could cause fires, and burn their historic district that managed to survive virtually intact to the ground.
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Quote:
answer me this: if everyone had done their job perfectly with the exception of nagin would NOLA be in the situation it is now?
Absolutely. But let's throw the governor in there with the mayor for good measure.
The federal government comes in after a disaster, not during (unless requested to do so). It's the State and Local government's job to handle the disaster itself, the evacuation, coordination, etc. And New Orleans had a pretty decent plan -- it just wasn't executed in a timely and efficient manner.
New Orleans would still be underwater right now -- no force, Presidential-authorization or otherwise, can stop a levee from failing. Businesses will still have been looted, fires still would have burned, and people would still be spread all over the nation.
Could it have gone smoother -- hell yes it could have. FEMA's job when it's authorized and gets there is to coordinate, and it didn't do a good job of that at all. But the end result would have been exactly the same. We'd be in the same spot right now, it's just whether or not we would have been in the same spot on, say, September 1st. More lives could have been saved if Nagin and/or the governor would have reacted faster, but the city would still be in the same shape.
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