|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,718
Hard-core CEG'er
|
OP
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 3,718 |
Originally posted by BP:
hold on, since when did the mayor of NO run FEMA and NOAA? those are the people responsible for disseminating information related to evacuation orders and planning for natural disasters.
NOAA is a government-sponsored weather agency; they can issue all the warnings under the bloody sun but they have NO authority to enforce anything. I dare you to tell me that they weren't warning the Southern states that they were in for a Hell of a ride long before Katrina made landfall...
FEMA can issue warnings, evacuations and mandate removals, but again, their ability of enforcement revolves almost EXCLUSIVELY around local responders; there is no "FEMA-police" going door-to-door telling people to get the hell out of the way. It's local police who are in turn directed by the LOCAL authorities, who are in turn often directed by state leaders, who are in turn ADVISED by Federal agencies...
Jesus, didn't ANY of you guys study government or have any inkling on how state, local and federal powers are seperated???
A profound LACK of state and local preparations is NOT the fault of FEMA, nor is it a "first-responder"; FEMA is a mop-up group and HAS ALWAYS BEEN.
Initial preparations are the UTTER AND SOLE responsiblity of state and local authorities. Period and end of story. When someone breaks into my home, I don't call Donald Rumsfeld and ask that he dispatch the 82nd Airborne; I call 911 and let LOCAL responders mop up what is left of the perp if I'm lucky; if not, they are moping me up.
Originally posted by BP:
the point of this thread is to bash the mayor for supposedly going against FEMA when a hurricane threat is near. that's not case based on the information i've seen.
Nope; my point in this thread is to show that Nagin is an idiot. He's asking people to come back home to a place that has marginal social services established and was risking this happening again as the levees are STILL damaged and in a weakened state. Past that, he has the gall to piss and moan about the Feds finally taking the initiative and stopping the re-population of N.O. due to the salient risks associated with it and play "jurisdiction" games when he was nearly soiling himself not two weeks ago BEGGING for the Feds to come in and take over for him.
Nagin was pissed because FEMAs new director, Thad Allen, in Nagin's own words, "stepped outside his lane by talking directly to the citizens of New Orleans".
Well, doesn't someone have to when you have a reputation for not just dropping the ball, but ENTIRELY ignoring it's existance?
JaTo
e-Tough Guy
Missouri City, TX
99 Contour SVT
#143/2760
00 Corvette Coupe
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,037
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,037 |
Originally posted by Antonio Wright:
Originally posted by Corbett:
Originally posted by BP:
i feel the same way. there's enough blame to go around, but a lot of people are focusing on this guy like it's mostly his fault.
Between him and the spineless Governor I would have to say yes, what happened after the disaster was their fault. they have know for how long that this would eventually happen and when it did they have no plan whatsoever.
Sor, your telling me the blame falls squarely on the local and state? Come on, Tim! When you have the director of Fema stating that, "he did not know people were trapped in the convention center." Even though news about the center was being broadcasted all over the world.
The blame ABSOLUTELY falls on local and state. They're the ones who are supposed to be the first line of eyes and ears focused on what's going on in the city, not the federal staff who may not even know where the convention center is. And call me crazy, but I don't think the director of FEMA should be channel-flipping looking for news on who's where in the city when he's supposed to be managing the assets at the federal level and is EXPECTING those local authorities to keep him updated with the situation at street level. Besides, Brown later said that he completely mis-spoke at that point in time; they knew there was a situation at the convention center, but I don't think they had many details.
Not that it matters what we armchair mayors think, although I never saw footage of any other mayors of heavily impacted areas like Biloxi or Gulfport holding press conferences to cry and scream. I *did* see, however, a reporter interviewing a group of evacuees in Houston after Bush's appearance the other night and they quite emphatically talked about how badly their mayor screwed up.
"Think of it, if you like, as a librarian with a G-string under the tweed." Clarkson on the Mondeo.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710 |
Originally posted by Antonio Wright:
Alot of things are going to happen eventually. Like yellowstone erupting and a giant asteriod destroying the Earth. Fact of the matter is that, GOVERNMENTS are not proactive, they are reactive.
So you are telling me that even though everyone knew this would happen one day, the local and state governemtns are not responsible for having some sort of plan for when it did?
- Tim
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710 |
Originally posted by BP:
Originally posted by Corbett:
Because they knew those levies would break eventually and did not even have a plan once they finally did break! Thats how.
please excuse yourself from this discussion. as mentioned before it is not the mayor nor the governors responsibility to come up with disaster management and recovery plans.
Yeah I know, we should just expect our government to run and save us 10 seconds after something happens like this. Lets just throw personal responsibility out the window and rely solely on them. 
- Tim
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,037
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,037 |
Originally posted by BP:
Originally posted by Corbett:
Because they knew those levies would break eventually and did not even have a plan once they finally did break! Thats how.
please excuse yourself from this discussion. as mentioned before it is not the mayor nor the governors responsibility to come up with disaster management and recovery plans.
You must be joking.
"Think of it, if you like, as a librarian with a G-string under the tweed." Clarkson on the Mondeo.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,220
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,220 |
Quote:
Sor, your telling me the blame falls squarely on the local and state? Come on, Tim! When you have the director of Fema stating that, "he did not know people were trapped in the convention center." Even though news about the center was being broadcasted all over the world.
You're apparently very confused on what the role of the federal government, in particular FEMA, is supposed to be in the event of a natural disaster...
Emergency Response is a local government responsibility. FEMA doesn't make evacuation plans, and NOAA sure as hell doesn't, cities do. FEMA doesn't execute evacuation plans, cities do (though FEMA can announce federally-mandated ones, but can't enforce them on its' own). FEMA doesn't clean-up cities after the fact, cities do. FEMA doesn't enforce laws when lawlesness breaks out, cities do.
The role of the federal government in the case of a natural disaster is very minimal. It consists primarily of monetary assistance as well as experience. FEMA is just a bunch of egghead experts on disaster recovery who lend their experience and knowledge to help and a big bank account to pay for things. That's all.
That's not to say that the federal government didn't have their fair share of mistakes, but their mistakes wouldn't have direcly caused any of the problems that I get the feeling you think they would have.
You might want to read the webpage of the New Orleans Disaster Management Office:
Quote:
We coordinate all city departments and allied state and federal agencies which respond to citywide disasters and emergencies through the development and constant updating of an integrated multi-hazard plan. All requests for federal disaster assistance and federal funding subsequent to disaster declarations are also made through this office.
Yeah. They did a great job. 
2003 Mazda6s 3.0L MTX
Webpage
2004 Mazda3s 2.3L ATX
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198 |
Originally posted by BP:
please excuse yourself from this discussion. as mentioned before it is not the mayor nor the governors responsibility to come up with disaster management and recovery plans.
(I guess for the sake of this argument I will assume that Nagin had no responsibility for the people of NO). He could have been a good leader and recognized that the authorities were not doing what they were supposed to, and allocated local resources appropriately.
I wonder what would have happened if Guiliani would have excused himself from any responsibility in New York because 'handling attacks on the U.S. is not his responsibility'. We aren't comparing apples and oranges; both are leaders. One excelled, the other failed miserably.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,489
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Aug 2000
Posts: 1,489 |
Originally posted by JaTo:
I dare you to tell me that they weren't warning the Southern states that they were in for a Hell of a ride long before Katrina made landfall...
when did they issue the warning to NO that they would be taking a direct hit? was it enough in advance for FEMA or locals to plan and execute evacuation of the areas expected to be hit?
Originally posted by JaTo:
FEMA can issue warnings, evacuations and mandate removals, but again, their ability of enforcement revolves almost EXCLUSIVELY around local responders; there is no "FEMA-police" going door-to-door telling people to get the hell out of the way. It's local police who are in turn directed by the LOCAL authorities, who are in turn often directed by state leaders, who are in turn ADVISED by Federal agencies...
obviously in a disaster of this scale the local governemnts are overwhelmed and unable to provide the resources necessary. that's why they're declared disaster areas so the FED can provide the help where needed. was that handled properly? NO! and as i've said before no level of gov can escape blame for this.
Originally posted by JaTo:
A profound LACK of state and local preparations is NOT the fault of FEMA, nor is it a "first-responder"; FEMA is a mop-up group and HAS ALWAYS BEEN.
it is well known that there is no way NO could have prepared for this large of a disaster with the warning they had. even if they had gotten everyone out of the city there was nothing the local or state gov could have done about the levies.
Originally posted by JaTo:
Nope; my point in this thread is to show that Nagin is an idiot. He's asking people to come back home to a place that has marginal social services established and was risking this happening again as the levees are STILL damaged and in a weakened state.
no he isn't. last i heard he's telling people to avoid NO. when there was no threat of the hurricane, yes, he was allowing people to come back and check out their homes/property/belongings. not to live but to recover what they could. and how is calling someone an idiot different from bashing? that is the point of this thread no matter how you word it.
Originally posted by JaTo:
Nagin was pissed because FEMAs new director, Thad Allen, in Nagin's own words, "stepped outside his lane by talking directly to the citizens of New Orleans".
and what's wrong with that? what's wrong with him wanting the information to pass through him, as it is now?
Originally posted by JaTo:
Well, doesn't someone have to when you have a reputation for not just dropping the ball, but ENTIRELY ignoring it's existance?
lol! the irony. same thing i was saying about bush. and since you want so bad to turn this into a race issue, i bet if bush was black or latino people like you would have impeached him for iraq fiasco. yeah i said it!
'03 Saab 9-5 Aero
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,760
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,760 |
Well, I thought the whole NO thing was a race issue anyways, so I thought I'd just make sure we all understood. Originally posted by Antonio Wright:
Because we all know that me and BP are making excuses because Nagin is black.
My point was that Guilani (sp?) handled himself with dignity and respect. Nagan on the other hand handle him self just the opposite, man.
Originally posted by BP:
don't even start cause you can't compare these two situations. one was a terrorist attack that was completely localized and had no effect on infrastructure. the other was a natural disaster that affected a much larger area and completely wiped out many critical parts of the critical infrastructure.
Ryan
Trollin!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,760
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 6,760 |
I'm not wasting my time reading the rest of your possibly good post because it's obvious by your first you don't understand the system and how it's designed. FEMA NOR NOAA plan evacuations, that is the LOCAL and STATES job. FEMA responds; NOAA predicts, both of which they did. I can dig up the evacuation plan if you'd like, and high light areas that were not done... Originally posted by BP:
when did they issue the warning to NO that they would be taking a direct hit? was it enough in advance for FEMA to plan and execute evacuation of the areas expected to be hit?
Ryan
Trollin!
|
|
|
|
|
