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I'm on page 5? 
** Mike **
"You might beat me in a straight line, but I'll embarass you in the turns"
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Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
This is retarded. The transmission was a rebuild. It was basically new. I ran MTL in it from the rebuild on til now. About 14k miles. There IS NOTHING else that could've caused the sludge. Prior to the rebuild the case was CLEAN. After the rebuild the case was CLEAN. How are you ppl not getting this!?
Don't you remember that the torsen and quaife both rely on friction from gears rubbing together? You didn't have a failure with the MTL as you pointed out and you didn't have a problem with your transmission since he looked at it for research.
Don't you think it is possible to have gotten a significant amount of black metal residue from any fluid while that diff was breaking in?
All of you people have Failed to even acknowledge the point I made that you will get the same stuff in an ATF equipped transmission with a torsen. You just jump on the MTL bandwagon but it is the worn down material from the gears. Damn, at least address this point instead of jumping to a different topic and avoiding it.
Are you saying positively that this wear and sludge would NOT have occured with ATF or Honey? Are you willing to put your money where your mouth is so to speak when the next transmission that is opened up and didn't have MTL looks like that? [ If there were anyone with a stock tranny that ran mobile1 and a torsen or honey and a torsen decides they want free labor to help THEM pull the trans for some reason, then I will...just to examine the inside of the transmission while I am at it. I have the garage and I have the tools.]
How many people who have put in these ATB's have had the things opened back up and examined? Not many because they are built so much better than the stock diff. This means that any number of ATBs out there could be showing the exact kind of sludge buildup with any kind of fluid and YOU WOULD NEVER KNOW because they are working fine, haven't failed and don't need to be opened up. Hell, the inside of the transmission is a rough aluminum surface, porous. It is going to hold on to any particles that settle on it and not allow them to be flushed out anyway when you drain the oil. So will the magnet. It's going to be there, count on it.
All you did with having your trans opened up (besides muddy the waters more) was prove that your transmission with an ATB has higher amounts of wear residue than a non ATB equiped transmission. IF the stock diff is failing, IT WILL ALSO have high amounts of material but because it was failing, not because it is designed to have gears rub together and wear like an ATB.
So your statement is a perfect example of oversimplification and not really addressing all the possibilities.
I would love to see your transmissin in 20K miles after the Ford Honey. Will it have residue? I'm almost positive your magnet will have a good coating but it will be less overall since your differential is now broke in and the rate of material wear will have dropped lower now.
And I'm not even positively saying the MTL is not the cause or a contributor of some other transmission failures...but I highly doubt it.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Originally posted by todras:
Don't even bother Pete. Ppl are PMing me with conclusions about why your trans "went." It's obvious no one is reading everything posted. PETE'S WAS CRACKED TO PROVE A POINT! Build up on a fresh trans that ran straight MTL. My head hurts. If Demon would have started this post everyone would be crying about the sky falling and this thread would be 1 page long. Everyone would quit running MTL and everything would be hunkey dorey.
So that is your goal? Everyone quit running MTL because you and Terry and mapoftazi say so?
Read my response above, you haven't proven anything by opening ONE ATB transmission that didn't have a failure or any issues.
Did you take freshman composition in college, or do any comparative analysis to determine the best of something? The only way to have an argumentative paper was to "Compare and Contrast" the opposing view points.
This would be to compare other ATB equiped transmissions with the same hardware, similar miles but different fluids. THAT would be some serious evidence there. But because you have made these statements without real investigative work, and because you jumped on an assumption without a wide range of data to fully illustrate either point, you have hurt your argument.
NOW you have pride at stake. How would we know that you would even report a failure on Ford Honey in the future? You didn't approach it open minded from the beginning, you went on a witch hunt from one incident; so we can't know that you won't do so from now on. 
You still see some brass and you're calling it gold.
I'd have been willing to accept ONE possible explanation of MTL causing the failures if there were numerous cases and a couple of examples showing that other fluids didn't cause failures on equivalent transmissions were also presented for comparison purposes.
I thought some good might come out of this thread but I was wrong.
People say "leave this thread, it's important." No its NOT. All it is is National Enquirer type reporting. Might as well be saying, "OOH space aliens contaminated my fluid and broke my transmission" 
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
Originally posted by Terry Haines:
Two ways you can view this oil issue:-
View 1:- FMC have developed the correct spec's for the
lube to match the needs of the MTX75.They have
approved a supplier and that suppliers lube meets the
specs.
View 2:- Fords specs are incorrect for the MTX75 as is
the lube spec and a better lube supplier has proved
that their product is better(This implies that Ford
have made a major error on the honey lube specs)
I think the onus of proof is on the aftermarket
supplier to prove that their lube is better.I have yet
to see another suppliers test data that shows such
information,either by testing or chemical formulation.
Just a thought!
Now these are very valid points and I can agree with these.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Originally posted by Terry Haines:
...do NOT impart friction from the two gears rubbing together...the friction is on the END of the planet
gears,between the end of the gear and the diff carrier
case...NOT between the gears...
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Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
Originally posted by Terry Haines:
...do NOT impart friction from the two gears rubbing together...the friction is on the END of the planet
gears,between the end of the gear and the diff carrier
case...NOT between the gears...
Well its a good thing Terry doesn't have a problem reading the posts, he just has a problem coming back to CEG and answering them himself.
Now, friction is friction. Something is rubbing somewhere or there wouldn't be friction. The details of the ends of the gears or the sides or whatever are not important in the point I'm trying to make so I'm not going to allow more clouding of the issue!
Friction causes wear. Wear will result in material deposits and break down. Simple as that. Brake pads and rotors come to mind as an example of controlled, designed friction. Rotors wear out, pads wear out, brake dust is the result which has metal and pad material. So get back on the issues.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Ok is it fair to assume with my trans that you think..... 1)The black/sludge is a non issue,is normal and I shouldn't worry about it? Y/N 2)I should continue to use the lube as it won't damage the trans? Y/N 
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Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
Ok is it fair to assume with my trans that you think.....
1)The black/sludge is a non issue,is normal and I
shouldn't worry about it? Y/N
2)I should continue to use the lube as it won't
damage the trans? Y/N
You forgot a choice for both questions:
1.) y/n/u
2.) y/n/u
I pick U for unknown at this time based on current information.
Limited amounts of sludge and wear are to be expected but I have not seen multiple MTXs with the torsens or quaifes removed for examination. I'm willing to bet money that during the break in process there will be higher levels of residue in the lube. I just don't know what is normal. Yours just looks higher than I would expect based upon what you have told us were the lubrication and flush histories of your transmission.
I had a significantly higher amount of wear on mine with ATF in my transmission during the break in. It isn't exactly the same as I changed my fluid like four times in the first six months before I chose Redline MTL and stuck with it for the next year and a half. I had a serious amount of residue and particle content in the ATF when I first drained it. After that the levels dropped down.
When I took it apart two months ago after a sustained amount of time on MTL I had some dark residue but very little as compared with what was in my trans when I first opened it up to install the new shift forks and the torsen.
I am going to say that you will NOT completely get rid of the wear and black residue.
I think that using an ATB will just require a more frequent change of lube to flush out the wear materials so that increased wear doesn't develop from an excessively high metal content floating in the oil.
This would be very high in the beginning during initial break in and the amount of use/abuse the diff sees and then it should taper off to lower levels. I'm guessing that break in fluid should be flushed after about 5K miles, then a second flush at 10K, and then a fresh change at the one year mark and then every year thereafter or a little higher depending upon racing/track use.
I make this recommendation after spending many hours researching this topic, looking at my own results, yours, and others. It appears to me that the rate of material buildup will accelerate IF FM is added to the ATF during the break in process. Best to use a quality ATF during break in for the two flushes as it will be the least likely of all the fluids to cause the sludge buildup.
Then on that third Fill up I'd put in the Ford Honey or the fluid of choice.
For now, my choice of fluid type and change interval will but thus:
1.) High Quality dino ATF for break in (Mobile 1 is probably too slippery) x2 flushes.
2.)Redline MT90 for summer use (or Royal Purple as I have used that too and I think it is Very good stuff, or Ford Honey)
3.)Redline MTL for winter. (Or: RoyalPurple Synchromax, Mobile1 ATF since the temps are lower)
---NO FM used at all (change fluid if shifting is an issue)---
*planned fluid change would be bi-annually, spring and fall.
Now, this doesn't mean that if better evidence is presented I won't change to accomodate it, EVEN if it is to discontinue use of MTL or Redline products. But not right now.
***The most conclusive thing I can find that IS consistent is the higher rate material wear ending up in the fluid from the ATB and the subsequent requirement for more frequent changes with high quality fluid used after break in.
To answer you other question, I would think that sludge levels like I saw in your transmissions pictures would eventually be harmfull but lower levels probably wouldn't hurt at all. I honestly think it is the type of fluid that you broke in your differntial with that caused the sludge.
ATF is thinner and more likely to flush out that sludgey metallic material that will be so much more prevalent during initial break in rather than a gear oil based lube. The gear oil would leave in material simply because of the viscous properties when it is warm, and when drained(like using a solvent instead of an oil to clean something, one cleans and one lubes).
Now, you can go about and ridicule my conclusions or not. Just remember the information is free and only one persons recommendations; only one opinion.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Great answer! 
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