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Joined: Aug 2001
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Originally posted by todras:
You might want to read a little more carefully. The results ARE from new UNUSED samples. You say you haven't read anything contrary to MTL? Might I copy and paste a certain paragraph in the post above yours?
Uh, I read ALL of it the first time. And that applies how???
It isn't overagressive, it is designed not to attack metals and this hasn't been proven otherwise (at all) despite your slanderous comments. AS I stated before you have a set of observations with a range of possiblities. When have you sat down and addressed all of the possibilities?
I'm not going to dog the analysis guys because they only know what they are being fed.
Also, IT SAID NOWHERE in the beginning that you used clean samples. IT said virgin on the scans of the reports but that wasn't readable until after the post, hence my questions.
Why attack these points? Haven't I argued based upon the information and not on the circumstantial?
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Aug 2001
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Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by morbid:
Ok... I would guess that the darkness and smell of the MTL is ONLY from failing/failed tranny and/or differential. I've changed my MTL 2 times (about 10,000-12,000 miles apart) and each time it looked almost like new -- no smell, cherry red, and no metal flakes. I just changed out the MTL for a 3rd time about 2 weeks ago. My diff began failing yesterday and I drained it when I got home. It stank like hypoid, was dark brown/red... and was filled with metal flakes (looked like a ricer paint job). The drain plug was even gouged and scraped 
And another MTL user bites the dust. Anymore? Why are you changing it so often. Must have $ to throw around on $10 a qt gear lube. As stated a million times. Of course it will look good coming out. The sludge isn't going to pour out in it! This is getting so old hat it isn't funny. The only reason this thread is still going is because 2 respected members know everything. What about one "disrespected" member with the means/education to tell you what not to use? Guess that means nothing even though all the evidence backs his claims and more comes to light as this thread grows. He builds most of the performance tranny's on here. Haven't heard of any of them failing either. Why no one listens to him when he tells you what's going on with the ones running MTL is way beyond me. He shows documented pics, spends $200 on independent lab tests and communicates with experts/engineers in the chemical engineering field gathering their take on the issues. I missed where others are doing that.
This is pretty off base. Terry knows a lot but he is no lubrication expert nor a materials expert. In fact, when I was TA at the University of Arizona one of the classes was MSE 331, the materials classes our department taught to Mechanical Engineers! This complemented strength of materials classes but also showed me just how little the average ME and EE knows about materials. No slight to them but it isn't their field. They learn a lot over the years but still....
So you and Terry are dabbling in fields that you are not expert in and we are supposed to take it all like gospel?
I am not lubrication expert and not a ME. I'm a MSE! So that is why I feel like pointing out a bunch of the errors in these assumptions that are/were made about the materials.
The damn stock diff has case hardened material. This stuff degrades and wears down with stock ATF which you say is better than MTL. HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT? If it will wear out with the ATF yet you don't blame the ATF, HOW DO YOU BLAME THE MTL?
I'll reiterate again what I told you in PMs:
This simply appears to be a case of bias against MTL and other NON Ford materials. If the recommended Ford ATF (mercon) was so darn good then why were there so many MTX failures with it? Why then is it NOT the fault of the ATF?
I think Terry pointed out that the stock diff was a very sorry part and he was very right on that one.
Until you guys start addressing all the issues before you cry wolf the no one is going to be able to take you seriously.
This is like giving someone a hot pepper and have them die of a heart attack, then blaming the pepper.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 250
CEG\'er
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Originally posted by todras:
Of course it will look good coming out. The sludge isn't going to pour out in it!
I don't quite follow the logic here. If the MTL is suspending the particles to clog the passages to the diff, as stated earlier, why would it look clean when coming out of the transmission?
Anywho, I went ahead and switched from MTL to Mobil 1 this week as my personal assessment of the risk outweights the $20 for fresh ATF. The fluid was drained immediately after the car had been run for a while, so the fluid was hot. In fact, the temperature was about 153F (yes, I checked.) There was no debris in the oil, though it had only been in for less than 10k miles. The color was identical to unused MTL as well.
Does this information prove anything? No, it is just more information for those who are interested. I will heed Terry's advice for the time being as there is no contesting that he has outstanding experience with this transmission.
Matt
2000 SVT Toreador
#1210 of 2150
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Originally posted by todras:
{edit}
The EP additives used in the WSD-M2C200-C series are
developed from ATF packages (zinc/sulfur) and provide
good EP performance without causing this problem.
{edit}
Never use GL5 as you can
only achieve this level with sulfur/phosphorus EP
additives.
~~~
Originally posted by todras:
Did it have a black residue when you opened it up after running MTL? Have you actually seen the inside of it?
Obvious you don't actually read any of my posts very well. I've stated several times that neither I nor Tom had any residue from the MTL.
My MTX-75 had MTL in it (over 1.5 years old) when I tore it apart during the 3L/LSD project. Again something I've stated a few times in this thread alone.
Should I bold face that for you this time?  
Now stop going off on a tangent by saying that Ford Honey is good so therefore MTL is bad. There is no logic there. There also is no proof that MTL is bad and significant proof it's better then any form of ATF.
If anything this should be a thread stating not to use ATF and especially ATF with LSD additive. (i.e "cocktail" ) Which btw is still being recommended???
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,065
Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by xdouble:
Originally posted by todras:
Of course it will look good coming out. The sludge isn't going to pour out in it!
I don't quite follow the logic here. If the MTL is suspending the particles to clog the passages to the diff, as stated earlier, why would it look clean when coming out of the transmission?
Anywho, I went ahead and switched from MTL to Mobil 1 this week as my personal assessment of the risk outweights the $20 for fresh ATF. The fluid was drained immediately after the car had been run for a while, so the fluid was hot. In fact, the temperature was about 153F (yes, I checked.) There was no debris in the oil, though it had only been in for less than 10k miles. The color was identical to unused MTL as well.
Does this information prove anything? No, it is just more information for those who are interested. I will heed Terry's advice for the time being as there is no contesting that he has outstanding experience with this transmission.
I don't have an answer to that...you just have to look at the pictures. I drained it and the sh!t came out fine.
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The testing would be even more meaningful if they would have sent a used sample from the failed trans. I understand that it is too late for that now, but it would have been very useful as it would have given a better idea about how and if it failed as well as given additional information about how the transmission failed. It would be really interesting to know just what that black residue is from.
Jim Johnson
98 SVT
03 Escape Limited
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Hey fellas Ive been reading along and I am awaiting a result as far as the FM is concerned. I am and have been using this along with Mobil 1 with FM for a long time. I think its time for me to get some input here maybe to light up some ideas or whatnot.
-First off, I dont feel that we should be bashing certain transmision fluid users for the choices that they make.
-Second off, we cant just look at what trannys have failed because of MTL. We need to find out how manny trannys have failed period amongst CEG. I learned this in science, my teacher told me in order to get more accurate results there needs to be more specimins or variables.
-Third off, Why cant we test the chemical/metal reaction between the stock differential and the oils. I remember when I switched from my stock diff to my Quaife I had alot of wear on some teeth and I could chip off metal shavings with my fingernail. I dont believe I changed the fluid since I bought the car but I know for sure it was regular ATF per previous owner.
-As far as the fluid changing color its bound to happen I mean the tranny heats up causing friction and heat, changing the way the fluid interacts with the inside and causing wear. You guys cant expect to put in a red liquid and get the same color liquid when you are ready to change the fluid. There would be no need to ever buy fluid again in those cases.
I understand why people stand behind their product MTL because its loyalty to what they are comfortable with or fits their needs. But we need to remember that MTL is an aftermarket product and may not always be intended for all makes and model vehicles. example. I cant buy a universal honda supercharger and put it on my contour its not made for it, but its universal for all honda applications you get my drift. 2nd reffering to the FM now. Ford is known to makes mistakes and keep them quiet in order not to get in trouble. Well maybe they realized that the FM was causing breakdown in the case and had "Ford Honey" produced to surpass the quality of the FM and slowly remove it from the shelves without many people noticing. It happens everywhere. I tried to buy some piaa superwhites for my fog lights and Piaa told me that they are discontinued and the new replacement is the starwhite light. Same bulb, improved color, whole new name.
Dont flame me for my comments and views I just dont want you guys getting out of control and leading the thread to be locked. This is a very informative thread since the very first few posts and its only getting better. Lets work together and see what we get.
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OP
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Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
Stazi is running MTL so hey...should be fine right?
Not for long... R P S...
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Originally posted by path914:
Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by Marky:
MTL is not cherry red, are you sure? Have you been using ATF?
We just did a fluid change on an SVT this weekend, no red color at all in the MTL we drained, and definately no red color in the fresh MTL we filled it with. No red color in the MTL I filled my SVT with in May.
FYI MTL has a pinkish redish hue to it when new. When slightly used it turns into a brownish/black red.
I've never experienced that. The fluid that Marky and I changed last weekend came out a medium amber color, just a smidge darker than the new MTL we put back in.
The Redline MTL that was in my car was very much a dark cherry red, almost a claret. If I hadn't known it was transmission fluid, I might have suspected it to be quite tasty. Seriously, it looked like cherry cough syrup.
"Think of it, if you like, as a librarian with a G-string under the tweed." Clarkson on the Mondeo.
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Originally posted by Jeb Hoge:
Originally posted by path914:
Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by Marky:
MTL is not cherry red, are you sure? Have you been using ATF?
We just did a fluid change on an SVT this weekend, no red color at all in the MTL we drained, and definately no red color in the fresh MTL we filled it with. No red color in the MTL I filled my SVT with in May.
FYI MTL has a pinkish redish hue to it when new. When slightly used it turns into a brownish/black red.
I've never experienced that. The fluid that Marky and I changed last weekend came out a medium amber color, just a smidge darker than the new MTL we put back in.
The Redline MTL that was in my car was very much a dark cherry red, almost a claret. If I hadn't known it was transmission fluid, I might have suspected it to be quite tasty. Seriously, it looked like cherry cough syrup.
I'd like to add to this too: every bottle of MTL i've used and filled/drained has been a cherry red color. Looked like Faygo Rock and Rye... mmmm. It even smelled kinda nice (not like Faygo though).
Maybe someone thinking they used MTL were using something else? What color is MT-90?
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