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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 4,141
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Posts: 4,141 |
wow, $18 a quart for ford hiney at the dealer......thats just sad.
99 SE V6\5spd - 156 HP\157 TQ 15.166-90.84
Totaled 02/12/06
99 SVT # 1571 - 175 HP\153 TQ 14.999-91.88
Born 3/24/99 Reborn 3/18/06
Pietenpol Racing Technologies project vehicle
90 Festiva L 5spd, Blue(not for long), 103k
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602 |
Originally posted by Big Jim:
Originally posted by rkneeshaw3.0:
Originally posted by Big Jim:
Perhaps because Ford changed the spec from ATF to gear oil?
What? Is Ford Honey a gear oil?
The only documentation produced has said ATF or Ford Honey, when/where has it been said to use a gear oil?
Somewhere in the distant past of CEG I posted the spec sheet for Ford "honey". IIRC it said that it was a GL4 85W95 gear oil. I don't remember clearly what viscosity it is, but I do remember clearly that it was GL4. That would have probably been three or four years ago.
Ford Honey is a fully synthetic GL4 85W90 GEAR OIL.
Like Big Jim said this information has only been posted for about 3 YEARS now! Before that you had to read the Ford reports to find it's specs.
12/99 was when Ford stated the TSB change to the "new Honey" fluid. That will be 6 YEARS this December.
There sure are a lot of people that think this is all new information.
The funniest part about this whole thing is my only issue was with the original poster ignorantly blaming the MTL for being "too thick" and causing his NEGLECT damage. Unfortunately the majority of the folks everywhere jumped on this band wagon without a freakin' clue in the world. Some of them even defend the original post still. 
I'll gladly cut my loses as I have much more important things to do then to try and talk to an ignorant brick wall. I've wasted enough of my time.
'nuff said.
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,065
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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That is why I didn't do it....couldn't remember the reason. I'm doing it this time tho.
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,693
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Posts: 4,693 |
I found that old thread. Please note that I started off wrong saying that it is a GL5 fluid and later corrected myself to show that it is a GL4 fluid. Also note that the display of the spec sheet somehow isn't still available, but you can tell from how others responded that they had read it. The main reason for looking it up is that it is actually 75W90 gear oil. http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=tranny&Number=215043&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Jim Johnson
98 SVT
03 Escape Limited
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by warmonger:
Originally posted by warmonger:
***section omitted***
On a side note, what lubrication can I use to protect it well?
Specifically, I used ATF initially because it was what the manufacturer
called for but the noise was very high from day one so tried other
fluids. I had good luck with Redline MTL and I wanted to make sure that
this fluid was good for protecting the differential. It is recommended
by Redline for my type of transmission but I wanted to be sure as I read
a rumor that MTL would cause oxidation of the metal on the differential.
If you can confirm or deny that Redline MTL will help/harm the diff I
would appreciate it. If you aren't aware of the specs on MTL you can
review the specs from Redlines website at www.redlineoil.com under tech.
If there is any other lubricant that you feel is better then please let
me know.
Thanks,
Tom
Reply from the Manager of Quality and project engineering himself:
Originally posted by Torsen:
Hello Tom,
Glad to see everything is working well!
***section regarding personal information omitted***
The T-2 unit is designed to run in just about anything so the manufacturer's
suggested ATF is what I would have told you to run with as we do for all
requests regarding axle or transmission fluids for the Torsen. We do get
emails from vehicle owners saying that they run their Torsen units in a wide
variety of fluids and I have not heard anything back that has been negative,
especially with the Redline MTL. That does not mean however that oxidation
does not occur, just that we have not heard about it!
Unfortunately, because of legal issues we cannot suggest a lubricant for
your transmission since we don't have the technical background to make such
suggestions or claims. I realize that this does not help much but I hope
you can at least appreciate the difficulty we face in suggesting one brand
over another and the technical expertise required to do so!
Best regards,
Manager of Quality, Project Engineering, & IT/MIS
Toyoda-Koki Automotive Torsen North America, Inc.
Company Website: http://www.torsen.com
I want to highlight the fact that he specifically points out that he has had no negative reports, especially about Redline Oil.
If my diff were oxidizing and not getting lubrication because of a fluid I used I would report it to Torsen so that they would verify and have a warning to protect customers and themselves from future warranty issues.
Upon further contact with Redline, they have pointed out that there is just no way to know all the contributing factors in these situations so far posted here. They have NOT said that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. They have only taken the stand that their product will not cause the oxidation and sludge buildup reported and that it will provide superior shifting and protect the components.
And I'm guessing they haven't had any reports on MTX-75's due to the fact there aren't but a handful of people running it. What do you think they are going to say. Yea our fluids do oxidize certain metals.  He states to run what the manf. says. Very smart guy. I'd do the same... oh wait I do. Our spec is Honey now not ATF but you get the point. Run what the manf. states. Then you can argue but I have an LSD in it now. Yea what does Ford recommend for those in Europe the come from the factory with them. THE SAME THING!
Sorry Todd, but you have to READ what I wrote before posting a response. Look at what I highlighted in your response and tell me how that makes sense? This was from TORSEN, not Redline. They have nothing to gain by helping or hurting Redline Oil. They would likely report any case of any problem with Redline Oils used with their differentials for ANY transmission because of the questions that I asked.
Therefore they have indirectly supported that Redline Oils are not causing problems with their diffs. End of story.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by Stazi:
Soon after I broke in the trans with ATF, I switched to MTL and have about 20,000+ miles on it so it'll be interesting to see what has happened with the fluid and any wear particles therein, since then.
I don't think their will be particles per say though. To really tell you're going to have to crack it open to see the tell tale signs. The sludge isn't going to come out with the fluid.
Funny, you are suddenly an expert yourself? I argue from experience that those 'so-called' telltale signs are not really signs of a problem at all! Go to any transmission place the does a decent around of turnaround with your photos. Ask them if this is normal in a High Use transmission with moderate oil changes. This would assume you don't prep them before hand with any information, but I think you'll find that it is quite common.
It all depends on too many factors such as time on the fluid, current usage, and previous situations the trans was in like fluids and usage before the rebuild.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by warmonger:
Is that the same cougar manual that has all the misprints and errors in it?
Wow, just wow. Ok.
Anywho when Terry gets Blackbirds trans I'll be taking pics of that too. Don't know why I even bother since I've posted a ton of pure evidence but no one can see the forest for the trees.
How the heck is that evidence? You don't even know what I know about that cougar manual yet you spout it as truth? Who's actually being foolish now? I KNOW that the manual is in error because I have seen it with my own eyes and verified with the Mercury Dealer that there were ERRORS in the manual! You should be saying "'wow' I walked into that one".
I'm NOT kidding, check what I'm telling you about the contents of the manual and the so-called Cougar 'S' and whatnot. It was a load of bunk, a concept.
Hell, if I lied I would never be trusted again but if you see it in print it must be fact?
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by todras:
yea I'm sure it was fabricated. How could you just mistakenly print that? Yes the Cougar S didn't make it to production but was extremely close. Big deal. So everything in the manual is a mistake because they had Cougar S info?
The 99 Cougar manual is the only one that states to add 2 oz of FM.
You ask how can you mistakenly print something yet in the same paragraph you say the CougarS was extremely close but never made it into production. So what you are saying is someone went ahead and added stuff they weren't supposed to before the quality control guys could sort it all out....and they went to print on it and printed in error. Nothing unbelievable about that. It also means that other things could have been inadvertently printed. Therefore the manual is suspect and we throw that bit of evidence OUT....same as in court.
Next.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Just FYI, another response from Redline. Originally posted by Redline Oil:
...
The MTL is not corrosive to brass or bronze and is non-corrosive at temperatures in excess of 375�°F. Sulphur does not oxidize aluminum. Aluminum oxide is white, not black.
Starting in 2000 Ford started recommending a different fluid, XT-M5_QS a synthetic manual transmission fluid in these all of transaxles and retrofitting it in earlier units. This is a GL-4 qualified fluid, it contains the GL-4 levels of sulphur and is very close in viscosity to the MTL.
If the black coloration is due to anything other than just normal wear, it may be just oxidation due to temperature. A sulphur containing fluid can darken with sufficient temperature, this doesn't change it's ability to perform or protect. An oxide coating on a gear actually is protective. I haven't seen an indication that MTL doesn't perform or protect well in the transaxles, certainly superior to an ATF. An ATF does use a different GL-4 chemistry so would tend to remain clearer/lighter in color.
In a dog ring racing transaxle we would recommend the ShockProof LightWeight though that is a completely different application.
A note regarding the MTL spec sheet quote, it is saying the MTL is a suitable replacement for a motor oil or a GL-1, GL-3 or GL-4 gear oil in a transmission/transaxle application. A 5W30 motor oil for example is the same viscosity as a 70W80 gear oil and a good motor oil will offer GL-4 protection levels. Ford has and currently does call for a GL-4 gear oil in the MTX-75 transaxle as noted above.
I am sorry if people are selling off their MTL based on misinformation.
Please feel free to contact me with any additional questions and/or comments.
Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil
Combine this with some of the Materials information I posted and You may start to wonder if your assumptions are correct. IN FACT, why haven't there been any comments on my observations that Aluminum Oxide isn't likely to be affected by additional corrosives?
Why hasn't someone addressed the issue that a friction based LSD is going to wear down material over time and that the material is going to go somewhere?
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by todras:
Define clean? I guess if you like a black coating on everything. As you can see in Pete's 1 year old tranny it's never going to look clean/shiney like the ones that didn't use MTL. And if you can't see that but I'm sorry you're just an idiot. No helping that. I'd never use a fluid that covered everything with black residue. 
That is total bullcrap. You've used ATF haven't you? Ask Terry about the buildup in the original fluid fill of the transmissions and what color it was!!
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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