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Joined: Dec 2001
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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I decided to verify what my owners manual for my 96 SE says. For the 5speed manual transaxle it says simply "Mercon ATF". Thats it.
Is it possible the addition of friction modifer in later model contours and cougars was a mistake (or rather, something ford later found out wasn't right), and thus the reason for the TSB to use Ford Honey instead? Date of manuals recommending FM so far = 1999, 2000. Date of TSB = early 2000
More to think about. This is very intriguing.
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Joined: Apr 2003
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The '99 owners man. says the same thing.
1999 Toreador Red SVT, DOB 4/22/99, 2005 Of 2760.
"Many posted questions are answered by farm boys"
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602
Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by JB1:
for the record, both my 99 and my 2000 contour owners manual say the same thing.
Prove it then??? 
I have a 2000 owner's manual and it states:
MERCON ATF ~ XT-2-QDX
Want some proof. I have plenty to go around for everything I spout.
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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Joined: Apr 2003
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Originally posted by Tisby:
Originally posted by JB1:
for the record, both my 99 and my 2000 contour owners manual say the same thing.
And by the same thing, you mean the cougar's manual?
nevermind...please forgive me because i am stupid. i made a mistake.  i read the manual wrong. it does not mention the fm.
edit-demon, isn't it refreshing to see someone (this schmuck, aka me) is willing to admit when he is wrong. not an accusation btw. too bad i didn't catch the mistake earlier.
Last edited by JB1; 09/15/05 04:16 AM.
00 black/tan svt, #2052 of 2150, born 2/1/00
formerly known as my csvt
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." -Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Joined: Sep 2002
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This is fcuking funny! I'm going with Terry's advice. If I'm going to be a lemming at least I am follwing the one building my goddamn tranny. I suppose I am a lemming for following Demon's advice on my 3L too. 
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
This is fcuking funny! I'm going with Terry's advice. If I'm going to be a lemming at least I am follwing the one building my goddamn tranny.
I suppose I am a lemming for following Demon's advice on my 3L too.
Fellas! FELLAS! Could everyone please watch the lanuage!? I mean... I should have locked this thing on the first few pages, but I let it go because this is a very important topic to alot of people. I knew that there were alot of strong opinions on this subject and there would be some fluid throwing. And I am willing to let alot of that slide as long it is in a constructive way (aka nonbashing). But the language has gotta change. You ain't sitting around some camp fire or in a garage. So I expect everyone to start acting like it or I will have to start banning folks. It's either that or we move this thread and someone can go through all this and rewrite the topic. 
There's rules `round here, so lets try to follow them. 
Phillip Jackson
`98 Mystique LS
262K+ and counting...
ATX rebuilt @ 151K
"This storm has broken me, my only friend!" RIP Dime
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Joined: Aug 2001
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hdbngr8
Please do! Get more technical information and post it.
I am pretty much convinced that when redline talks about FM in their oil they are talking about the blending of the base oils and NOT an additive like an external friction modifier.
They don't smell the same at ALL. The lube with FM added to it smells like fuel or something when it is pulled out! I can only guess that to reduce friction the FM actually breaks down the molecules in the oil to reduce slipperyness. I'm guessing they are long, straight chain molecules designed to slide on each other for a while in order to provide the lubrication protection and this FM breaks up a percentage of those molecules depending on how much is added. This to me would be very bad because of the excessive wear.
I'm also gonna reiterate the point I made a long time ago that as long as the diff is operating and the synchros are working correctly over the correct temperature range then there is no need for additional additives to adjust friction.
Now that you are bringing up how the FM corrodes the metal at the point of high pressure I beginning to wonder even more about the amount of wear that was caused by it before hand!
I used ATF+FM one time and the wear rate and fluid was sooo dark that it was horrible. The fluid stank as I already stated and it came out like water. I thought it was just the atf that was poor but I'm beginning to think it was the FM added to the ATF. I've been in contact with Torsen over this issue for a while but it is hard to pin down the exact cause of the excess noise/wear because I have such a high torque motor and that could easily contribute more wear.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
This is [bleep] funny! I'm going with Terry's advice. If I'm going to be a lemming at least I am follwing the one building my goddamn tranny.
I suppose I am a lemming for following Demon's advice on my 3L too.
Yep. What about that 3L, was Demon all wrong on that one too???? You know Terry
The point is Terry is a transmission expert, not a fluid expert. Read the letter from Torsen, they are powertrain experts and they don't claim to be fluid experts either but they know how to build the parts.
Terry's advice was to use FM and many knowledgeable people have warned about that over the years, not me I might add as I don't know. Still I wouldn't blame Terry in the least if it is wrong. I am not a fluids expert but I am pretty well educated in metallurgy and Materials science. I can tell you properties of steels and how it is made, heat treatments, etc. My point is it is up to us to find out for ourselves, not just blindly follow advice. If don't know and don't want to find out then put in the fluid that Ford recommends and leave it to curious people to find out.
So I suggest that until we find a real fluid expert then we hold off on the lemming attitudes and go by the fluid specifications recommended by the manufacturer.
Ford doesn't say you have to use their products as that is against the law. They publish the specifications for their products and it is up to you as the consumer to use what they tell you or match the lube specs. FM isn't one them by the way!
I think we really need some IR spectroscopy of Ford Honey versus Redline MTL. This is the easiest way I know of seeing if they are chemically similar. We must have something to compare the MTL with and if the Honey is the new fluid of choice then that is the one to compare it to.
Anyone in 1st or 2nd semester Organic Chemistry right now? When I was in O-Chem we took gasoline samples from around the city and compared. We could tell the major components of the fuels and which stations were lying on their premium grades and which weren't. An oil will be just as easy to examine.
If we combine that with the Lab Results Terry is getting done then I think we can get a good picture.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
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I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
Originally posted by unisys12:
Fellas! FELLAS! Could everyone please watch the lanuage!? I mean... I should have locked this thing on the first few pages,
Yea lets just lock everything on THIS SITE. Lock it up so no one learns. We're adults having a discussion. Some have used some less than eloquent language but who cares. You think a couple 10 year olds are reading this tiny post in this vast internet. Some great information has come about in this thread because it flourished. And why BECAUSE IT WASN'T LOCKED! Why anyone would even think about locking it has issues. Thought this was a car site not romper room.
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
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Joined: Nov 2000
Posts: 10,015
Hard-core CEG'er
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Well I will be switching to RP Synchromax when I get back form vacation. I plan on draining my tranny fluid into a clean white container to check for debris.
Terry had commented on my tranny when I took it to hm for a quaife and Zetec FD when I was doing my Turbo. It had previously been repaired by Ford for a toasted 3rd gear synchro, and after it was reassembled they had used the Ford "Honey" and it was clean as a whistle.
Soon after I broke in the trans with ATF, I switched to MTL and have about 20,000+ miles on it so it'll be interesting to see what has happened with the fluid and any wear particles therein, since then.
2000 SVT Turbo 295hp/269ftlb@12psi
#1 for Bendix Brakes Kits!
Knuckles rebuilt w/new bearings $55
AUSSIE ENDLINKS $70
Gutted pre-cats $80/set
A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine!
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