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Originally posted by rkneeshaw3.0:
Originally posted by RoadRunner:
This makes no sense...
What are we supposed to do for those with Limited Slip Rears?
We still NEED Friction Modifier.
huh? Who drives a contour with a limited slip rear?
And please, why do you think we NEED friction modifier?
It's printed in 99+ Cougar owner's manuals under fluid recommendations. Not sure about the Contour owner's manual.
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Hard-core CEG'er
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...trying.........to............learn.......so........difficult.......... 
Function before fashion.
'96 Contour SE
"Toss the Contour into a corner, and it's as easy to catch as a softball thrown by a preschooler." -Edmunds, 1998
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Joined: May 2000
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Link to Cougar Onwer's Manual ... look at page 232!
http://www.newcougar.org/download/files/owners_manual.pdf
Apparently, it references Ford Specification "ESD-MAC-186-A" ... anyone have access to OASIS?
Last edited by fastcougar; 09/14/05 09:46 PM.
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
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Originally posted by fastcougar:
Link to Cougar Onwer's Manual ... look at page 232!
http://www.newcougar.org/download/files/owners_manual.pdf
Apparently, it references Ford Specification "ESD-MAC-186-A" ... anyone have access to OASIS?
now that's funny!
1999 Cougar V6 MTX
SVT UIM/LIM/65mm TB, I/H/E, Fidanza/SPEC III/Torsen, Koni/GC's, 19" Icon wheels w/ Pirelli rubber, NX Wet Kit
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Sweet jesus, thank god! A documented reason to use friction modifier!
I swear I was gonna go crazy.
Looks like that was issued in 1999, so it should be accurate and applicable.
Lets verify some part #'s
EZL401 and ESDMac186A
No room for assumptions here IMO.
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Joined: Sep 2000
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Originally posted by Big Jim:
Obviously The immediate impression of the Ford honey + XL3 was that there was a slight improvement over ATF+3, but not much. As time has gone on, the improvement has gradually continued to increase.
Psst. Changing 60k mile old ATF  may have been why the shifting got better. 
In all seriousness.
Perhaps I left out some detail. I never left any ATF, Mercon or ATF+3, in the trans for 60,000 miles.
When the ATF+3 was installed the first time at 45,000 miles, the Mercon had already been changed twice. For the next 105,000 miles, the ATF+3 had been changed 3 times. It is the Fod Honey that has been in 60,000 miles and is due for a change, but it is working so well I'm a little reluctant. I may run it another 10,000 miles or so.
On another note, friction modifier is one of the many types of additives that are used in blending different types of lubricants. Even Mercon has friction modifiers before any more is added. It just doesn't seem to have enough.
It may help to study this web site. Specialty Formulations is a boutique blender of exceptional fluids.
http://specialtyformulations.com/
Take a look at the write up for MTL-P, a 75W85 GL4 (and GL5) trans oil, and MTFGlide, a manual trans oil for manual transmissions that normally use ATF. You will note that both of them include friction modifier in their formulation. I took the liberty of cutting and pasting the details of both of those products below.
MTL-P, Synthetic Manual Transmission GL4/GL5 Gear Lube 75W85
1 Quart $9.95
1 Gal. $28.95
MTL-P replaces Honda MTL HG (part number 08798-9016), Nissan/Infiniti HQ Multi 75W85 (part number 999MP-MTF00P), BMW MTF-LT-2 (part number 23 00 7 533 514), and some Audi fluids.
A 75W85 weight oil recommended for manual transmissions and transaxles specifying a 75W85 lubricant. MTL-P is great for manual transmissions and transaxles that experience problems with low temperature shifting.
We start out with the industry�s latest and most advanced PAO Group IV and Group V base fluids and include a robust Extreme Additive (EP) and Anti-Wear (AW) package. For added fuel savings, we add our Pat-Pending friction modifier.
What this means is that MTL-P provides the ultimate in Anti-Wear (AW) and Extreme protection while lowering fuel bills over petroleum gear lubricants.
To prevent rust and corrosion, we use the most advanced rust inhibitors, metal deactivators, and antioxidants. MTL-P provides plenty of protection for copper-alloy metals such as a bronze and brass bearings and synchronizers. Sintered metal synchronizers are protected as well. Shifting is smooth and detent is crisp with MTL-P.
MTL-P is compatible with old and new transmission seals.
Instructions: No need to rinse transmission. Simply add and replace filler plugs.
Specifications (Average)
SAE 75W85
Color Lavender
Gravity API 28.1
K. Viscosity@100C 11.5 cSt
K. Viscosity@40 C 82
Pour Point -40 F
Specific Gravity 0.87
Viscosity Index 121
Specialty Formulations is not responsible for misuse of this product. Wash hands after use. Keep out of reach of children.
MTFGlide GL4/GL5
1 Qt. $9.95
1 Gal. $28.95
A low viscosity synthetic transmission fluid for manual transmissions that normally require an ATF. This fluid has the same viscosity as ATF fluid but 5 times the AW/EP additives, and has a GL4 EP additive package. MTFGlide gives your manual transmission superb shifting qualities while protecting the gearing, bearings, and shifter forks. Special friction modifiers guarantee synchronizer and blocker ring engagement are smooth as silk. MTFGlide uses the best synthetic fluids and additives to provide excellent cold weather shifting, positive detent, and protection for yellow metals and sintered synchronizers.
We start out with the industry�s latest and most advanced PAO Group IV and Group V base fluids and include a robust Extreme Additive (EP) and Anti-Wear (AW) package. For added fuel savings, we add our Pat-Pending friction modifier.
What this means is that MTFGlide provides the ultimate in Anti-Wear (AW) and Extreme Pressure (EP) protection while lowering fuel bills over petroleum gear lubricants.
To prevent rust and corrosion, we use the most advanced rust inhibitors, metal deactivators, and antioxidants. MTFGlide provides plenty of protection for copper-alloy metals such as a bronze and brass bearings and synchronizers. Sintered metal synchronizers are protected as well. Shifting is smooth and detent is crisp with MTFGlide.
MTFGlide is compatible with all transmission seals. May also be used in Transfer Cases that specify an ATF.
Remove drain plug and drain old oil. Replace drain plug and tighten. Refill according to manufacturer�s specified capacity.
Specifications (Average)
Color Blue
K. Viscosity@ 100 7.5 cSt
K. Viscosity@ 40 39
Pour Point -45 F
Viscosity Index 197
Flash Point 455 F
Specialty Formulations is not responsible for misuse of this product. Wash hands after use. Keep out of reach of children.
Jim Johnson
98 SVT
03 Escape Limited
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Well, As promised I brought the issue to the attention of Redline and to Torsen. I posted Redlines reply and I am about to post an excerpt from the email from Torsen. I'm only posting the part about the lubricant questions as the other part is my business dealing with them. Originally posted by warmonger:
***section omitted***
On a side note, what lubrication can I use to protect it well?
Specifically, I used ATF initially because it was what the manufacturer
called for but the noise was very high from day one so tried other
fluids. I had good luck with Redline MTL and I wanted to make sure that
this fluid was good for protecting the differential. It is recommended
by Redline for my type of transmission but I wanted to be sure as I read
a rumor that MTL would cause oxidation of the metal on the differential.
If you can confirm or deny that Redline MTL will help/harm the diff I
would appreciate it. If you aren't aware of the specs on MTL you can
review the specs from Redlines website at www.redlineoil.com under tech.
If there is any other lubricant that you feel is better then please let
me know.
Thanks,
Tom
Reply from the Manager of Quality and project engineering himself:
Originally posted by Torsen:
Hello Tom,
Glad to see everything is working well!
***section regarding personal information omitted***
The T-2 unit is designed to run in just about anything so the manufacturer's
suggested ATF is what I would have told you to run with as we do for all
requests regarding axle or transmission fluids for the Torsen. We do get
emails from vehicle owners saying that they run their Torsen units in a wide
variety of fluids and I have not heard anything back that has been negative,
especially with the Redline MTL. That does not mean however that oxidation
does not occur, just that we have not heard about it!
Unfortunately, because of legal issues we cannot suggest a lubricant for
your transmission since we don't have the technical background to make such
suggestions or claims. I realize that this does not help much but I hope
you can at least appreciate the difficulty we face in suggesting one brand
over another and the technical expertise required to do so!
Best regards,
Manager of Quality, Project Engineering, & IT/MIS
Toyoda-Koki Automotive Torsen North America, Inc.
Company Website: http://www.torsen.com
I want to highlight the fact that he specifically points out that he has had no negative reports, especially about Redline Oil.
If my diff were oxidizing and not getting lubrication because of a fluid I used I would report it to Torsen so that they would verify and have a warning to protect customers and themselves from future warranty issues.
Upon further contact with Redline, they have pointed out that there is just no way to know all the contributing factors in these situations so far posted here. They have NOT said that anyone's opinion is right or wrong. They have only taken the stand that their product will not cause the oxidation and sludge buildup reported and that it will provide superior shifting and protect the components.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Hard-core CEG'er
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I have a little insight about the "myth" of using friction modifier in the MTX75. It is incomplete because it was already a common practice before I joined CEG.
Shortly after buying my SVT, I found CEG and followed the postings on the Contour-L list before deciding to join. I emailed Lance about joining. In that email, I mentioned my background as a former Ford tech and then currently as a service manager. I also mentioned that I felt that using friction modifier in a manual trans was improper.
I found many that had tried adding the friction modifier and that the transmission behaved much better, especially when cold. There was one member back then, from Sweden, with a Mondeo, that complained to his dealer about the shift quality and the dealer added friction modifier and the problem was resolved.
Others mentioned that they felt that the 95 shop manual called for type F ATF with added friction modifier. I never confirmed that. I do know that Mercon does have a higher level of friction modifier than type F, so it seemed reasonable.
Since then I have made it a point to ask manual transmission technicians about their experience with friction modifier. Most knew nothing about it. A few, mostly old timers, were aware of it, and sometimes added friction modifier for special cases from time to time and some also always used it on their own transmissions.
I became a believer when I tried ATF+3 with great success.
There are other automotive applications where friction modifier became an unofficial cure. Many power steering technicians had been using a little friction modifier in power steering pumps to cut pump noise. During the worst of the trans torque converter shudder problems on the AODE transmission, a hot line engineer "unofficially" told me that many of them had been cured with the addition of some friction modifier, but that Ford no longer wanted it to be added so it could not be listed on the warranty claim. I have myself confirmed that indeed trans shudder could be reduced or eliminated with a 4 oz bottle of friction modifier. If that made a significant difference, I knew that the problem could be resolved with a complete trans fluid change. Ford eventually published that the entire problem was due to "tired fluid". That is part of why they developed Mercon V, although they have never officially sanctioned backfitting Mercon V into those older transmissions.
Jim Johnson
98 SVT
03 Escape Limited
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Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by warmonger:
What do you want me to say? Lay over and agree with something that I don't believe? What kind of person would I be. I only argue using facts and logical assumptions from facts.
Well at one point in this thread you sounded as if you were being swayed. What happened to that? Would you like to explain the oxidation on the Quaife and the tempered splines?
Sorry to have put those vibes out man. 
I only meant to point out that I pointed out some discrepancies I saw in the photos but that I was sorry if I cast a negative light on the reports.
I believe Terry is only reporting what he sees and I'm fine with that and I don't want to cast doubt on his observations.
That said, I don't think the conclusions drawn from the observations are correct and so far I stand by my own assumptions.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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