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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by warmonger:
And some people aren't going to tell us a Non Ford recommended product is fine either; namely Ford reps, Pro Ford people and so on. What of it? That is why God gave us the ability to reason and think for ourselves.
OMG! Here we go again and again.
 Sometimes a man's gotta do what a mans gotta do.
What do you want me to say? Lay over and agree with something that I don't believe? What kind of person would I be. I only argue using facts and logical assumptions from facts. I'm not stupid and if I see questions that are unanswered then why not voice them?
If I saw the condition of the tranny I would say:
"Self, why is this tranny so dirty?"
Then I would list off the three or four possibilities and slowly see if I can eliminate them. It is a version of the scientific method.
So again, I ask for the proof in the pudding so to speak on how it is definitively the MTL and not something else?
I see NOTHING that says it is the MTL. I see pictures and I hear just one possible explanation. I've already offered an alternative solution to the amount of material in the transmission and that is excessive wear from the LSD.
Are you saying that is dead wrong? And that it is for sure the MTL that caused it? How? Show me a method and I"ll follow along. Lead me to water and I'll drink, not this tripe.
How do I know that it wasn't the ATF fluid he used for Break-in purposes that caused the excessive wear and most of it settled when he flushed it. Did he run consecutive flushes? That is exactly what happened on my own Torsen Diff. I broke it in with dyno ATF with XL-3 friction modifier. The stuff was putrid when I took it out after hardly a month,. terrible petroleum smell to it! There was all kind of blackish fluid that came out with it. I flushed it using two flushes, one quick one with ATF and then Redline MTL. Voila, noise quieted down and the severe wear dropped off. 1.5 years later the transmission was in pretty darn good shape.
From these real experiences I honestly believe the ATF is the worst thing for these differentials.
I don't think it matters much for the stock gearbox but with an LSD this is different.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,825
Cool Toe Chris
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Cool Toe Chris
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 1,825 |
Well, I can tell you this much. I have been using the Ford honey and 2oz friction modifier since TH rebuilt my trans way back when. I have changed the fluid every year and it comes out all shiny (teeny metal flakes to be expected as I have a Quaife) honey colored and clean. No black sludge on my fingers when I stick my pinky in the fill and drain holes.
Shifting is incredibly smooth. I love driving my SVT over my 135k Impreza (winter beater). The Impreza's shifting is somewhat notchy while the SVT's is smooth as silk. This is aside to all of the SVT fun stuff over the Impreza. 
My dealer looks at me funny when I buy the fric mod, states its for a rear-end, but screw them. They are used to me and my freak Contique tendacies. 
Chris
NJ
98.5 SVT Silver Frost
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
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I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
Originally posted by warmonger:
What do you want me to say? Lay over and agree with something that I don't believe? What kind of person would I be. I only argue using facts and logical assumptions from facts.
Well at one point in this thread you sounded as if you were being swayed. What happened to that? Would you like to explain the oxidation on the Quaife and the tempered splines?
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,065
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,065 |
Originally posted by warmonger:
Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by warmonger:
And some people aren't going to tell us a Non Ford recommended product is fine either; namely Ford reps, Pro Ford people and so on. What of it? That is why God gave us the ability to reason and think for ourselves.
OMG! Here we go again and again.
Sometimes a man's gotta do what a mans gotta do.
What do you want me to say? Lay over and agree with something that I don't believe? What kind of person would I be. I only argue using facts and logical assumptions from facts. I'm not stupid and if I see questions that are unanswered then why not voice them?
If I saw the condition of the tranny I would say:
"Self, why is this tranny so dirty?"
Then I would list off the three or four possibilities and slowly see if I can eliminate them. It is a version of the scientific method.
So again, I ask for the proof in the pudding so to speak on how it is definitively the MTL and not something else?
I see NOTHING that says it is the MTL. I see pictures and I hear just one possible explanation. I've already offered an alternative solution to the amount of material in the transmission and that is excessive wear from the LSD.
Are you saying that is dead wrong? And that it is for sure the MTL that caused it? How? Show me a method and I"ll follow along. Lead me to water and I'll drink, not this tripe.
How do I know that it wasn't the ATF fluid he used for Break-in purposes that caused the excessive wear and most of it settled when he flushed it. Did he run consecutive flushes? That is exactly what happened on my own Torsen Diff. I broke it in with dyno ATF with XL-3 friction modifier. The stuff was putrid when I took it out after hardly a month,. terrible petroleum smell to it! There was all kind of blackish fluid that came out with it. I flushed it using two flushes, one quick one with ATF and then Redline MTL. Voila, noise quieted down and the severe wear dropped off. 1.5 years later the transmission was in pretty darn good shape.
From these real experiences I honestly believe the ATF is the worst thing for these differentials.
I don't think it matters much for the stock gearbox but with an LSD this is different.
I didn't use ATF for my break it. I used redline...then flushed it...then refilled. I also didn't use a frixn modifier.
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
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I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
I was looking back at some old posts and found this one my Demon.
Personally I would go with a known Full synthetic ATF (Like Mobil 1) over the "unknown" synthetic mix of the Ford honey colored fluid.
Especially for 1/3 (or less) the cost!
& another from here .
Nope. Ford's price is just stupid.
In other words. Typical Ford...
Mobil 1 ATF & 2oz Ford FM (half bottle)
I almost pissed myself. And on the price aspect. How much is a transmission worth to you?
& the very best post by demon.
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
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I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
Originally posted by rkneeshaw3.0:
My point is, the only reason I'm seeing people use friction modifier is because people on the CEG recommended it. I haven't seen or heard of it in any of Fords documentation or recommendations for this transmission. If it was so great, why hasn't FORD recommended it in a TSB, or any official documentation?
Per Terry. Synth is good for helping 'cold shift' issues but does nothing to help the syncros which need friction to work, hence the friction mod additive.
From other posts from ppl that have cold shift problems in colder climates with it. That would be us in MI. I'm sticking with tried and true Mobil 1. Easy to find, low cost and haven't heard of any issues/ill effects with it.
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,791
Hard-core CEG'er
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OP
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 6,791 |
I will be using ATF +3 for the break in, then switching to royal purple synchromax.
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
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I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Originally posted by todras:
I don't see anyone questioning the virtues of Ford Honey or Mobil 1. Have they ever? Not to my knowledge. Present away if I'm wrong.
I've stated for years that ATF is a piss poor fluid for protecting a manual transmission. It has no sheer viscosity strength (i.e. excessive wear) and is broken down very quickly. It was a "compromise" made by Ford so they did not have people complaining about shifting quality. A compromise that hurts the transmission in the long run. Running ATF when there are better more protecting fluids is definitely not the best idea. PERIOD.
If you want to use this flock of sheep's reasoning.  How many failures does the MTX-75 have under it's belt with ATF in it? About 100 million percent more then all the other fluids combined. Gee I guess I did not need to give any empirical proof it's truly bad with a record like that. 
Ford changed the lube spec to honey from ATF and FWIW the issue was not gear wear(why they changed) because gear wear was never an issue with ATF as the gear are a helical cut
which work fine with ATF lube(open up an auto, the gear trains are helical!). The only component in question is the stoc open diff straight cut gears......maybe thats why they went to honey....but again the 'current official Ford spec' is honey not ATF and 'honey' is NOT MTL.
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
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I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
From TH
MTX75 kogboxes(from around 2004 on ) have a change to the diff, still use the same 'moulded'/sinter style gears but the diamater of the diff pinion pin has been increased from around 15 MM diameter (that size goes right back to '94) to around 18 MM diameter....that alone tells you that they know of an issue with the open diff assy. This I found on a trans I built for a Focus with a 2.3 4 cylinder Duratec (pure track trans/car).....and as I said the lube spec is now honey for the Focus. I think all the 'musical lube' issues are around the diff, which a lube will not save(stoc diff that is), any trans with a quaife or torsen will have no issue.....whatever.....
_____________
If MTL is going to cause issues on a stock trans I'm sure as hell not putting it in my modified trans.
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,570
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,570 |
Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by rkneeshaw3.0:
My point is, the only reason I'm seeing people use friction modifier is because people on the CEG recommended it. I haven't seen or heard of it in any of Fords documentation or recommendations for this transmission. If it was so great, why hasn't FORD recommended it in a TSB, or any official documentation?
Per Terry. Synth is good for helping 'cold shift' issues but does nothing to help the syncros which need friction to work, hence the friction mod additive.
http://autorepair.about.com/library/glossary/bldef-219.htm
I'm not putting friction modifier in my transmission until the explanations add up. Is XL-7 a magical friction modifer that ADDs friction instead of REDUCING friction?
The definition of what friction modifier does goes against the reasons for adding it. Why?
Maybe the same reason its not part of the TSB ford released for its ford honey. Maybe its the reason my syncros went bad when I did the Mobil 1 + FM cocktail. Maybe not. But I'm sticking to what the TSB from ford says in the meantime, and that is straight up Ford Honey, no other additives. And if were asked, I would recommend others do the same.
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