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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Originally posted by akrump47:
Def one of the most worthwhile discussions I have read on here in a while. I'm glad this happened before my trans got redone. Anyone want 3 bottles of MTL? 
I'll take them. I'll pay about $10 for shipping to anyone who wants to give their 3+ bottles of MTL away.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,944
Hard-core CEG'er
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,944 |
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
I see no way for mosture to have gotten into the case of my trans.
Well, by the tranny sitting around. As the temp changes inside the case and outside the case, it can cause moisture to build up inside. With normal use, the heat generated during use will burn the moisture off. But if left to sit for a period of time, there is no chance for the moisture to burn off.
Phillip Jackson
`98 Mystique LS
262K+ and counting...
ATX rebuilt @ 151K
"This storm has broken me, my only friend!" RIP Dime
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Originally posted by MapOfTaziFoSho:
I see no way for mosture to have gotten into the case of my trans. I also fail to see how the quaife had the oxidation prior to the MTL being introduced to the trans. I'm prob just going to give up on this thread. Believe what you want...of course the guy isn't going to tell us that the stuff is fine...he works for the company. Regardless of what he actually may believe, he would prob give a positive answer to save face. I will never run MTL again and I will tell my friends to stay away from it if their trans is not too dissimilar from ours. I don't see much of a conclusion to this discussion...at any point...ever.
And some people aren't going to tell us a Non Ford recommended product is fine either; namely Ford reps, Pro Ford people and so on. What of it? That is why God gave us the ability to reason and think for ourselves.
BTW, there is a transmission vent on every transmission. It allows the air to come in and out as the heated fluid expands; otherwise the seals will blow out and leak. Plugged vents blowing seals has happened before. This is how the transmission will pull in moisture, from humid air every time it cools down. Also since it is cooling down the moisture just sits there until the next startup where it is boiled off. Ala rust.
I don't think the Redline Tech is saying that the diff was rusted. I read it as the higher wear of a friction based LSD is generating higher wear rates on the metal and generating a higher level of particles in the oil. His comment on rust is just a secondary observation. Don't forget that rusty metal is DARK when oiled, NOT red. Try penetrating oil on a rusted bolt and compare.
All I can say is that an LSD equiped transmission will need more frequent flushing due to the nature of the beast, at least once per year. Without a filter system what can you expect in any transmission? What would you expect in an ATX without a filter??? In fact that is indirect evidence to my statements on ATF filled ATX's also generating the same kind of paste, else why use a filter?
Metal parts in a metal on metal environment wear out. Hence cylinder walls and rings go out, gears wear down...it is natural. Frequent servicing to remove particulates helps. Anyone using an LSD in their contour is after performance and beats on it more than the normal driver...especially considering normal drivers won't fork out for the increased costs.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Originally posted by todras:
Terry just sent me this. He's been discussing the issue with some colleagues that work as "lube" engineers.
....info so far from 'Karl'(Germany),'Mike' (UK) &
'Ryan' (USA).
The overall take is that 'GL' additives are all a
problem in a trans with a)ally case b)brass bronze
blockers etc.The majority of GL additives are sulphur
based.This varies in %'age but does have a corrosive
effect on the brass blockers,be it slow.All agree that
the 'grey'/black paste is a result of the additives on
the ally case causing oxide.
ATF fluids dare not have any sulphur additive due to
the paste (re valve bodies in autos)and a lot of autos
also use brass/bronze bushings.
It appears the guts of the problem is sulphur.
Points against ATF...it does not like high gear tooth
pressures and can break down in high tooth pressure
designs(Re straight cut,semi-helical & hypoid gear
cuts),the MTX 75 has helical gear cut(lower tooth
pressures),except in the 'stoc' open diff gears ,which
are straight cut.This may expalain why some owners
feel the HP lube may save the diff gears.Should add my
2 cents here that the pre 98 diffs were 'fully' cut
gears Vs the later moulded/sintered diff gears.I have
never seen the early 'cut' gears fail,a diff pinion
pin yes but not the gears and most of these have run
straight ATF all the time (it was factory fill).
Examples ,an MTX with stoc gears and a Quaife/Torsen
diff = ATF or current Ford spec honey.
An MTX with Quaife 'syncro' gear set(which have a
semi-helical gear cut) and a Quaife diff =75W90
G4....this shows that the gear tooth pressure on a
semi-helical cut needs EP additives plus you will get
some grey residue but the EP is for the main gears not
the Quaife/Torsen diff.
Last extreme would be a Quaife 'dog gear' set that has
straight cut gears,no brass blockers(uses steel dogs')
and a Quaife diff =75W90 GL4/5, a higher GL rating for
the even higher gear tooth pressures of a straight cut
gears over a semi-helical or helical cut.
We still have some more info from all three to
come....Just a point to note,the MTL spec sheet on
it's benefits list *Satisfies manual transmissions and
transaxles requiring motor oils(engine) or GL-1,GL-3
or GL-4 gear oils. The MTX75 has never been spec'd
with motor oils or any GL type gear lubes,the only two
lubes have been ATF then 'honey(as a retro fill back
to '95)...
On further reading, another question?
If the GL-4 spec fluids are causing aluminum alloy case corrosion on our transmissions then why would it be ok to use them in an MTX-75 with the "dog gear" set? The dog gear set has no brass for one and this is another direct corroboration that the black paste is not from the case.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
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I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
The specs on Ford's "honey" fluid indicate it is a GL-4 rated fluid. (From Big Jim's post almost 3 years ago)
Yea & there are many types of additives that make an oil EP and fall into the GL specs. 'Active' and 'non-active' additives? Active would be say sulphur, non-active would be barium. Sulphur would cause the situation you have discribed (as seen in the oxidation on Pete's Quaife), barium would not but would still be a GL/EP oil.....but barium is far more expensive.
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
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I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
Originally posted by warmonger:
And some people aren't going to tell us a Non Ford recommended product is fine either; namely Ford reps, Pro Ford people and so on. What of it? That is why God gave us the ability to reason and think for ourselves.
OMG! Here we go again and again.
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
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I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
Originally posted by rkneeshaw3.0:
This is making my head spin.
Question on friction modifier: I've heard this in older threads I've searched and found bringing up this "friction modifier makes lube more slipery" thing. wtf is up with that? How does that help synchro's bite?
Also, I was checking to see if I had some friction modifier left from the old mobil 1 cocktail I ran way back in the day and found some XL-3. Upon searching, some older posts say to use XL-3 for the friction modifier. When did XL-7 become better and why?
I've always wondered why my 3rd gear synchros magicly went really bad only 2 months after putting in the mobil 1 w/ xl-3 friction modifier.... if it makes it more slippery maybe it accellerated the failure of my old synchros....
At this point I'm scared to put ANYTHING in that transmission. For now I just drained my MTL and loaded in some Valvoline ATF as a flushing measure before I put in the ford honey, but I'm definately holding off on putting any friction mod in there until I hear back.
Also to note, the ford TSB recommending Ford Honey doesnt' say a thing about friction modifier...
Oh god the sky is falling. XL-7 is for use with synthetic lubes. Just use Ford or Mobil 1! Stop being retarded Ryan. Enough of this here.
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
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I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
How many failures does the MTX-75 have under it's belt with ATF in it? About 100 million percent more then all the other fluids combined.
And where did you deduce this information?
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,065
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,065 |
Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
How many failures does the MTX-75 have under it's belt with ATF in it? About 100 million percent more then all the other fluids combined.
And where did you deduce this information?
True, but this is all hearsay. I didn't blow my diff and I was running ATF. How many ppl blew diffs with ATF w/o ever changing as opposed to those who ran ATF with regular change intervals. Too many variables and too much hearsay.
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,570
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,570 |
Originally posted by todras:
Originally posted by rkneeshaw3.0:
Question on friction modifier: I've heard this in older threads I've searched and found bringing up this "friction modifier makes lube more slipery" thing. wtf is up with that? How does that help synchro's bite?
When did XL-7 become better and why?
Also to note, the ford TSB recommending Ford Honey doesnt' say a thing about friction modifier...
Oh god the sky is falling. XL-7 is for use with synthetic lubes. Just use Ford or Mobil 1! Stop being retarded Ryan. Enough of this here.
My point is, the only reason I'm seeing people use friction modifier is because people on the CEG recommended it. I haven't seen or heard of it in any of Fords documentation or recommendations for this transmission. If it was so great, why hasn't FORD recommended it in a TSB, or any official documentation?
You see, I took the word of people on this site and used MTL. Now its up for debate whether MTL is actually harmful. Now I figure the safest bet is to go with what Ford says (ya know, back to the basics. After all, Ford built the thing, they should be the authoritive source to tell me what I should use). Ford doesn't say anything about using FM at all, but once again, people on this site are recommending it. I'm going to use my noodle here and wait to hear why FM is so great, and why Ford hasn't recommended it themselves. Are we just smarter than Ford engineers?
I don't want to be a lemming here and just follow the masses. I did that once and used MTL.
Forgive my excitement. I haven't eaten yet and its been a long day, I may be a little off-base.
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