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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,475
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,475 |
Def one of the most worthwhile discussions I have read on here in a while. I'm glad this happened before my trans got redone. Anyone want 3 bottles of MTL? 
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197
I have no life
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I have no life
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 21,197 |
Terry just sent me this. He's been discussing the issue with some colleagues that work as "lube" engineers.
....info so far from 'Karl'(Germany),'Mike' (UK) &
'Ryan' (USA).
The overall take is that 'GL' additives are all a
problem in a trans with a)ally case b)brass bronze
blockers etc.The majority of GL additives are sulphur
based.This varies in %'age but does have a corrosive
effect on the brass blockers,be it slow.All agree that
the 'grey'/black paste is a result of the additives on
the ally case causing oxide.
ATF fluids dare not have any sulphur additive due to
the paste (re valve bodies in autos)and a lot of autos
also use brass/bronze bushings.
It appears the guts of the problem is sulphur.
Points against ATF...it does not like high gear tooth
pressures and can break down in high tooth pressure
designs(Re straight cut,semi-helical & hypoid gear
cuts),the MTX 75 has helical gear cut(lower tooth
pressures),except in the 'stoc' open diff gears ,which
are straight cut.This may expalain why some owners
feel the HP lube may save the diff gears.Should add my
2 cents here that the pre 98 diffs were 'fully' cut
gears Vs the later moulded/sintered diff gears.I have
never seen the early 'cut' gears fail,a diff pinion
pin yes but not the gears and most of these have run
straight ATF all the time (it was factory fill).
Examples ,an MTX with stoc gears and a Quaife/Torsen
diff = ATF or current Ford spec honey.
An MTX with Quaife 'syncro' gear set(which have a
semi-helical gear cut) and a Quaife diff =75W90
G4....this shows that the gear tooth pressure on a
semi-helical cut needs EP additives plus you will get
some grey residue but the EP is for the main gears not
the Quaife/Torsen diff.
Last extreme would be a Quaife 'dog gear' set that has
straight cut gears,no brass blockers(uses steel dogs')
and a Quaife diff =75W90 GL4/5, a higher GL rating for
the even higher gear tooth pressures of a straight cut
gears over a semi-helical or helical cut.
We still have some more info from all three to
come....Just a point to note,the MTL spec sheet on
it's benefits list *Satisfies manual transmissions and
transaxles requiring motor oils(engine) or GL-1,GL-3
or GL-4 gear oils. The MTX75 has never been spec'd
with motor oils or any GL type gear lubes,the only two
lubes have been ATF then 'honey(as a retro fill back
to '95)...
-'96 SE MTX 3L
-'98 SVT 1,173 of 6,535
-'05 Mazda 6s, loaded, g/f's ride
-Need a 96-00 manual on CD? PM or email me
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,570
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,570 |
Originally posted by akrump47:
Anyone want 3 bottles of MTL?
Ditto
I've been trying to figure out how to get rid of these all day :/ Probably not even worth it to ebay them.
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,475
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 1,475 |
Ebay's prob a good idea actually. There's surely other cars/transmissions who wouldnt have problems with MTL. This discussion isnt over yet though. Still no reply from "Mr Sheep and Sensationalism" either ...
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602 |
Originally posted by todras:
I don't see anyone questioning the virtues of Ford Honey or Mobil 1. Have they ever? Not to my knowledge. Present away if I'm wrong.
I've stated for years that ATF is a piss poor fluid for protecting a manual transmission. It has no sheer viscosity strength (i.e. excessive wear) and is broken down very quickly. It was a "compromise" made by Ford so they did not have people complaining about shifting quality. A compromise that hurts the transmission in the long run. Running ATF when there are better more protecting fluids is definitely not the best idea. PERIOD.
If you want to use this flock of sheep's reasoning.  How many failures does the MTX-75 have under it's belt with ATF in it? About 100 million percent more then all the other fluids combined. Gee I guess I did not need to give any empirical proof it's truly bad with a record like that. 
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 9,602 |
Originally posted by todras:
Terry just sent me this. He's been discussing the issue with some colleagues that work as "lube" engineers.
Just a point to note,the MTL spec sheet on
it's benefits list *Satisfies manual transmissions and
transaxles requiring motor oils(engine) or GL-1,GL-3
or GL-4 gear oils. The MTX75 has never been spec'd
with motor oils or any GL type gear lubes,the only two
lubes have been ATF then 'honey(as a retro fill back
to '95)...
The specs on Ford's "honey" fluid indicate it is a GL-4 rated fluid. (From Big Jim's post almost 3 years ago)
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
First let me point out that this man took the time to actually review the thread, view the pictures and then respond to me in less than 24 hours. Here's the gist of what I submitted to Redline Oil: Originally posted by warmonger:
....The thread follows at the bottom of this request.
I need an engineer to take a look a this thread in an online automotive forum and make an educated guess as to what is going on. I have used MTL and found it to work very good but I only used it for about a year and a half. The reports are saying that the EP's are causing oxidation of the metal on the Torsen T2 differential, the Quaife differential, the aluminum case, and not protecting the gear teeth. The purported oxidation and poor lubrication is supposed to be causing sludge buildup which further reduces lubrication to bearings.
So if this is true then I would want to discontinue use of the redline product....
Here is their reply:
Originally posted by Redline Oil:
James,
Thank you for contacting Red Line Oil, the MTL does not cause oxidation and or corrosion. I don't see the oxidation that is being referred to, a dark film that seems to wipe off, it doesn't appear to be a high temperature oxidation component. I see what likely is some rust on the edge of the gear and the inter bearing race, likely from the presence of moisture. The MTL offers good rust protection, so this likely occurred some time previous to it's introduction. As far as the sludge, the Quaife and Torsen type differentials do tend to darken the gear oil, this is just the nature of these units, the MTL doesn't cause the sludge it is just a byproduct. The MTL is a GL-4 gear lube offering good EP protection but is not corrosive to either internal components or the aluminum case.
I am not familiar with the XL-7, I don't know what it may contain other than a friction modifier. A friction modifier makes the fluid slipperier which is not typically desirable in a synchro type manual transmission/transaxle application, a Dexron/Mercon fluid already being fairly slippery.
I would be interested in seeing the test results.
Regards, Dave
Red Line Oil
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 5,810 |
Originally posted by todras:
Terry just sent me this. He's been discussing the issue with some colleagues that work as "lube" engineers.
....info so far from 'Karl'(Germany),'Mike' (UK) &
'Ryan' (USA).
The overall take is that 'GL' additives are all a
problem in a trans with a)ally case b)brass bronze
blockers etc.The majority of GL additives are sulphur
based.This varies in %'age but does have a corrosive
effect on the brass blockers,be it slow.All agree that
the 'grey'/black paste is a result of the additives on
the ally case causing oxide.
ATF fluids dare not have any sulphur additive due to
the paste (re valve bodies in autos)and a lot of autos
also use brass/bronze bushings.
It appears the guts of the problem is sulphur.
Points against ATF...it does not like high gear tooth
pressures and can break down in high tooth pressure
designs(Re straight cut,semi-helical & hypoid gear
cuts),the MTX 75 has helical gear cut(lower tooth
pressures),except in the 'stoc' open diff gears ,which
are straight cut.This may expalain why some owners
feel the HP lube may save the diff gears.Should add my
2 cents here that the pre 98 diffs were 'fully' cut
gears Vs the later moulded/sintered diff gears.I have
never seen the early 'cut' gears fail,a diff pinion
pin yes but not the gears and most of these have run
straight ATF all the time (it was factory fill).
Examples ,an MTX with stoc gears and a Quaife/Torsen
diff = ATF or current Ford spec honey.
An MTX with Quaife 'syncro' gear set(which have a
semi-helical gear cut) and a Quaife diff =75W90
G4....this shows that the gear tooth pressure on a
semi-helical cut needs EP additives plus you will get
some grey residue but the EP is for the main gears not
the Quaife/Torsen diff.
Last extreme would be a Quaife 'dog gear' set that has
straight cut gears,no brass blockers(uses steel dogs')
and a Quaife diff =75W90 GL4/5, a higher GL rating for
the even higher gear tooth pressures of a straight cut
gears over a semi-helical or helical cut.
We still have some more info from all three to
come....Just a point to note,the MTL spec sheet on
it's benefits list *Satisfies manual transmissions and
transaxles requiring motor oils(engine) or GL-1,GL-3
or GL-4 gear oils. The MTX75 has never been spec'd
with motor oils or any GL type gear lubes,the only two
lubes have been ATF then 'honey(as a retro fill back
to '95)...
I can tell you right now that the part about the grey paste not being caused by ATF is incorrect.
I started my transmission work working on automatic transmissions; ford, chrysler, and GM. There is a serious amount of grey paste that accumulates in any automatic with around 1.5 years or more on the fluid and/or 25K miles or more, in almost every case! Why do you think they filter an automatic trans and don't filter a manual even though they both can use ATF? The valve body as Terry pointed out can't have a buildup whereas it is no big deal with the manual.
The ATF and lack of corrosives plays no roll as it is from the metal wear and the clutch and band material being worn off through time that the paste is caused in an ATX. In an MTX it is also through metal wear.
I'm intrigued that there can be the same paste buildup in a Transmission that uses ATF, be it an mtx or atx and yet THAT isn't called corrosion. It looks the same and can be wiped free.
I suspect all we are seeing is abnormally high metallic wear from the Torsen and or from the weak stock diff.
Anyone on here see any gray film/paste on theirATX, or on their MTX when the took it apart to put in shift forks and/or an LSD after using ATF? Or can we assume that everyone using ATF experienced NO gray metallic paste??
Oh, by the way. When was the last time that non-helical cut gears were used in transmissions and rear ends outside of higher performance racing or specific applications? I"ll give you a hint, like 1940!!
The manufacturers figured out that helical cut transfered the contact from one tooth to another continuously and made a much quieter operation. Straight cut gears are actually stronger but the downside is the noise. THe noise was so bad that the designers came up with helical cut.
This means....ALL factory differentials come with helical cut gears even in heavy duty work equipment other than special applications like racing based solely on high frequency noise and the resultant hearing loss. THOSE differentials and gear boxes, the helical cut industrial ones, were wearing out too fast and GL additives were developed to protect them from the high loads. All heavy rear ends call for GL-5 after it came out but the corrosion to brass prevents it from being used in transmissions. Nothing is said about the aluminum.
Another point. THe aluminum is protected by a layer of aluminum oxide. All alumimun without annodizing and coatings is protected by this 'Alumina' to some degree as it forms naturally as oxygen in the air corrodes the aluminum. The process will continue over time if left to the air uncoated (look at an aluminum rim without paint). After a while the process slows down because the oxygen can't penetrate the layers of alumina that form on the aluminum. Aluminum Oxide is one of the most chemically resistive, or chemically inert compounds known! To be corroded by oil additives is a bit of a stretch.
Look it up! Now you are getting into my area of expertise as a Materials Engineer. Alumina or aluminum oxide is VERY resistant to all kinds of corrosives. IT isn't perfect but I'd bet it can handle oil/oil additives and I know it can handle moisture. You don't think the GL-4/5 would list aluminum on the corrosive list if it wasn't an issue? That leaves only the brass and I don't think the brass will leave that color and kind of residue.
I'll look into it though.
Former owner of '99 CSVT - Silver #222/2760
356/334 wHP/TQ at 10psi on pump gas!
See My Mods
'05 Volvo S40 Turbo 5 AWD with 6spd, Passion Red
'06 Mazda5 Touring, 5spd,MTX, Black
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,570
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,570 |
This is making my head spin.
Question on friction modifier: I've heard this in older threads I've searched and found bringing up this "friction modifier makes lube more slipery" thing. wtf is up with that? How does that help synchro's bite?
Also, I was checking to see if I had some friction modifier left from the old mobil 1 cocktail I ran way back in the day and found some XL-3. Upon searching, some older posts say to use XL-3 for the friction modifier. When did XL-7 become better and why?
I've always wondered why my 3rd gear synchros magicly went really bad only 2 months after putting in the mobil 1 w/ xl-3 friction modifier.... if it makes it more slippery maybe it accellerated the failure of my old synchros....
At this point I'm scared to put ANYTHING in that transmission. For now I just drained my MTL and loaded in some Valvoline ATF as a flushing measure before I put in the ford honey, but I'm definately holding off on putting any friction mod in there until I hear back.
Also to note, the ford TSB recommending Ford Honey doesnt' say a thing about friction modifier...
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,065
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 9,065 |
I see no way for mosture to have gotten into the case of my trans. I also fail to see how the quaife had the oxidation prior to the MTL being introduced to the trans. I'm prob just going to give up on this thread. Believe what you want...of course the guy isn't going to tell us that the stuff is fine...he works for the company. Regardless of what he actually may believe, he would prob give a positive answer to save face. I will never run MTL again and I will tell my friends to stay away from it if their trans is not too dissimilar from ours. I don't see much of a conclusion to this discussion...at any point...ever.
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