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Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Speaking of religious zealots...
 I see you only come out when the rest of the liberal bottom feeders come out. Very nice.
Seriously though, I don't know why people like ODC think Creationists are the ones that should accept evolutionists' points. Evolution involves the same sorts of things that you can't see or touch or hear that Creationism involves. If you've actually seen evolution happen, then I want to take a couple puffs from your pipe. I'd like the same for Creationists. Both theories of our existence involve a level of faith, and for some reason those that construct this faith around religion are casted off as the wackos. No evolutionist has ever convinced me that they are intellectually superior because they believe in evolution.
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Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Frankly, I like leaders who have some sort of faith as I can use it as a gauge to anticipate how they would govern.
No offense, but taking politicians at their word when it comes to self-professed levels of faith or morality is a huge leap of faith in itself. I hold a deep cynicism toward all politicians, and don't believe one who calls himself a devout born-again is any less likely to do immoral things to get campaign money than one who doesn't make any religious claims about himself.
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Originally posted by TBoomer:
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Frankly, I like leaders who have some sort of faith as I can use it as a gauge to anticipate how they would govern. Faith as a guide is a good thing IMHO.
Oh, then you must be a big fan of leaders such as the Ayatollah Khomeini and Osama Bin Laden. They had lots of faith in their God which greatly impacted their theories on governance.
Wow. Way to twist somebody's words. Pretty low.
So what happens if someone who is not religious, but is best qualified for the position applys? Are you going to discriminate against them and think they are inferior and can't make the right decisions based on their difference of opinion?
I really think Bush goes too far with his religion... I don't like hearing him talking about "god" when he's giving speaches... there is a thing called "seperation of church and state" here, which is what this big debate is all about. Creationism = not allowed in schools b/c it's religious belief, and the Vatican even says so too!
And I really like how none of the religious people can counter my saying of "who is wrong?" when it comes to religions that believe in multiple gods, and ones that belive in a single all-powerful being... hmm... wonder why? b/c they can't say they're right or wrong either!
Now I'm going to mention about science... True, a lot of science is just a theory (which means THEY MIGHT BE WRONG TOO, OMG I said it!), there's oppponents to everything. I do like whoever mentioned about the stars/planets thing... SCORE! I'm not saying I think all science is true, but I sure in the hell believe in science more than I believe in god.
Quote from my physics instructor in high school (IMO, one of the smartest guys I've ever met, who is part of Amnesty International... we obviously have a difference of opinion there...):
Originally posted by W.G.:
When someone asks me if I believe in god, I tell them "I believe in science."
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Originally posted by Davo:
Seriously though, I don't know why people like ODC think Creationists are the ones that should accept evolutionists' points. Evolution involves the same sorts of things that you can't see or touch or hear that Creationism involves. If you've actually seen evolution happen, then I want to take a couple puffs from your pipe. I'd like the same for Creationists. Both theories of our existence involve a level of faith, and for some reason those that construct this faith around religion are casted off as the wackos. No evolutionist has ever convinced me that they are intellectually superior because they believe in evolution.
There are so many problems, misstatements and falsehoods here that I'm not even going to try.
As a rule science and scientists are indifferent to the various religious beliefs. Science is not about faith. Everything is open to question and examination â??? though at some point it is silly and counterproductive to do so. In the world of science, evolution is both a fact and a theory.
No serious scientist questions that evolution has occurred â??? it's as well established a fact as any in science. The theory behind evolution, the precise mechanisms responsible, is a dynamic and exciting field of study with new insights and understanding developed daily.
Let me put it this way, you are never going to see a serious biologist publish a paper titled something like â??New proof for evolution discovered!â? It would be ridiculously redundant. The fact of evolution has been firmly established for well over a century.
Science has nothing to say about faith-based beliefs â??? except that they are not science!
Scientists do care when religious groups try to define faith-based beliefs as â??scienceâ? (redefining science) and then aggressively use the political process to try and distort childrenâ??s understanding of it.
This absolutely reeks of madness in a culture so dependent on the disciplined application of science.
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Originally posted by JEDsContour:
There are so many problems, misstatements and falsehoods here that I'm not even going to try.
Please do try. I'm interested. 
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
As a rule science and scientists are indifferent to the various religious beliefs. Science is not about faith. Everything is open to question and examination â??? though at some point it is silly and counterproductive to do so. In the world of science, evolution is both a fact and a theory.
Please abandon the assumption that when I talk about faith I'm referring to anything religious. That will help you understand my points a little easier.
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
Let me put it this way, you are never going to see a serious biologist publish a paper titled something like â??New proof for evolution discovered!â? It would be ridiculously redundant. The fact of evolution has been firmly established for well over a century.
The fact that the Earth is the center of the universe was also established well over a century ago. So what's your point? If you think that once something is scientifically 'proven' that the book is closed on it, then I suggest a more careful review of scientific history for you.
Originally posted by JEDsContour:
Scientists do care when religious groups try to define faith-based beliefs as â??scienceâ? (redefining science) and then aggressively use the political process to try and distort childrenâ??s understanding of it.
Why do they care what religious groups have to say if their views and science are so well-proven and true? I'd think that if they were so right then they wouldn't care what some crackpot religious zealots have to say.
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Originally posted by ResidentAdvisor:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by ResidentAdvisor:
You do not know if evolution is real or not, but just because you dont know either way doesnt mean it doesnt exist at all.
Interesting how the knife cuts on both edges...
Open your f|_|cking eyes man! Thats what I have been saying the whole time! You think god is real? great!!!! I dont, Im not going to try to argue either way!
Disclamer: Just because you think God/evolution is not real, doesnt mean it is not real! God/evo can be real!
Whoo hoo!
Ps. For the slow: I havent been trying to argue whats real and whats not, I have been saying what I believe and what I dont.
PSS. dont try to push believes and opinions on others whether it be God/Darwin/Monte Python!
Easy, Bucko! 
I was just makin' an observation that the statement could be used for both arguements. I don't push my faith on anybody. As a loyal Catholic I hold my faith dear. As a good American I respect others rights & don't attempt to impose my faith on them. What a country!!!
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Frankly, I like leaders who have some sort of faith as I can use it as a gauge to anticipate how they would govern. Faith as a guide is a good thing IMHO.
Oh, then you must be a big fan of leaders such as the Ayatollah Khomeini and Osama Bin Laden. They had lots of faith in their God which greatly impacted their theories on governance.
Um, NO.
Knowing what their radical Islamic beliefs are, I would know that I DON'T want them as leaders. See what I'm sayin'.
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Originally posted by TourDeForce:
As a good American I respect others rights & don't attempt to impose my faith on them. What a country!!!
This is exactly how everyone should be!
I'm not going to try to force you to give up your religion, and likewise, you should not try to force beliefs upon me.
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Originally posted by Kane:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
As a good American I respect others rights & don't attempt to impose my faith on them. What a country!!!
This is exactly how everyone should be!
I'm not going to try to force you to give up your religion, and likewise, you should not try to force beliefs upon me.
Thank you for that. What bothers me is what I see as a mis-interpretation of the founding fathers intentions. Remember that many original settlers were here to escape religious persecution. The 'separation of church and state', IMHO, does not mean to EXCLUDE religion entirely from any public forum.
For example, the players prayer before a HS football game. If you're not a person of faith, don't join in. Just because it's happening in front of you doesn't mean that you should be offended. Quite the contrary, the avocation generally includes the hope that ALL players come off the field of play healthy, not just those participating in the prayer. People wishing you well too, WTH is wrong with that?
If you are of a different faith, then the coach should offer the opportunity for you to make your appeals to your respective diety. All about mutual respect, personal responsibility, & tolerance. All three of those seem to be slipping away from the fabric of our Great Society.
Here is a clip from another of my posts in this thread that sums things up for me...
Quote:
The power of faith should be respected, perhaps even revered, but if twisted can be a terrible scourge as we are learning yet again in mans history.
I guess I'm leading up to saying that faith is a personal issue that belongs in the home in the hands of the parents & preachers. After all, there are many cultures out there that don't read the bible.
School should be at once an oasis for science, math, and social studies, as well as a melting pot that exposes the student to the myriad of possibilities at hand. School should not be a tool for marginalizing faith, & indoctrination of the faithless. If nothing else, a nod should be given to the various beliefs that are represented in a classroom. This country was in part founded by groups trying to escape religious persecution. Revel in the diversity.
Thanks for listening. 
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Originally posted by TBoomer:
Originally posted by ResidentAdvisor:
To say I have no "moral backbone" or "sense of reality" is rediculous. Because I choose not to be religious I can no longer have morals? BS.
Where was your moral backbone here?
Whoa, you are right.....
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