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Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Did you really think it was irrelevant that Mr. Levin was calling for an INTERNATIONAL Response???
I do. Considering we now know that the U.N. was corrupted by the oil for food scandal & the french had sold their security council veto power.
The intelligence, as I keep reminding everybody, is irrelevant concerning Iraq - right or wrong. Iraq had DECLARED to the world & the U.N. what they had in their stockpiles - at least twice! The discrepancies in those declarations (missing WMD materials), & lack of evidence that those materials & equipment were properly destroyed were of grave concern. Especially in the aftermath of 9/11.
Did we find any significant stockpiles? No.
Does that mean they didn't exist? No. They certainly did exist.
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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If your only point is that many Democrats believed Saddam Hussein to be a significant threat I donââ?¬â?¢t think you will get an argument from anyone. The difference is that the Bush Administration was willing to commit America to a full scale all out war based upon this perceived threat ââ?¬â?? the Clinton Administration was not. They were more interested in a more measured and cautious approach.
After 9/11, most Americans, except apparently those in the Bush Adminstration, correctly perceived that the greatest threat to our country was OBL and Al Qaida- not Saddam Hussein. For whatever reason, the Bush Administration sought out information which would justify war against Iraq (i.e. yellow cake from Niger). There has never been any evidence linking Saddam with 9/11 or with Al Qaida. It is pretty much evident now that there is no evidence and no link.
Now, we are stuck in a quagmire in Iraq. Saddam Hussein, (incidentally an enemy of OBL) is under arrest but OBL is still at large and benefiting from the Iraq War ââ?¬â??a public relations bonanza that has to be beyond his wildest hopes and dreams.
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Originally posted by Davo:
I like this game! Now guess who said the statements below. (Highlight between the brackets for answers).
"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..." [Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003]
OK, so you are using this quote to illustrate your point that John Kerry was in favor of engaging in warfare against Iraq in 2003? This is from the same speech that your quote was taken from. Doncha think that this helps to put the quote in contest a little?
"In U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, the United Nations has now affirmed that Saddam Hussein must disarm or face the most serious consequences. Let me make it clear that the burden is resoundingly on Saddam Hussein to live up to the ceasefire agreement he signed and make clear to the world how he disposed of weapons he previously admitted to possessing. But the burden is also clearly on the Bush Administration to do the hard work of building a broad coalition at the U.N. and the necessary work of educating America about the rationale for war.
As I have said frequently and repeat here today, the United States should never go to war because it wants to, the United States should go to war because we have to. And we don't have to until we have exhausted the remedies available, built legitimacy and earned the consent of the American people, absent, of course, an imminent threat requiring urgent action."
Is this really evidence that Kerry or any other Democrat has reversed his or her position abut the necessity for full scale war in Iraq?
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Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Is this really evidence that Kerry or any other Democrat has reversed his or her position abut the necessity for full scale war in Iraq?
Well I don't have to use the quotes to determine that. Kerry's vote for the war, and then a vote against it and his following anti-war campaign are sufficient evidence that he reversed his position on the war.
But let's take the quote. He says it is clear that Saddam needs to be disarmed, but only after all methods other than war are exhausted. So, which methods were not exhausted? It's kind of ridiculous to say you should only do something if you've tried everything, try everything, and then still say we shouldn't have done it.
...and that's the point of disagreement. Your side likes to think there were many more options to exercise in order to disarm Saddam. This has been a point of contention since the war began and is a horse that has been beaten to death everywhere, including here.
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Originally posted by Davo:
...Your side likes to think there were many more options to exercise in order to disarm Saddam. This has been a point of contention since the war began and is a horse that has been beaten to death everywhere, including here.
Well, they do have a point, Davo. We failed to try Miss Cleo, we failed to try reading tea leaves, staring into crystals and most damning of all, we didn't send in Sean Penn with dark glasses, a cloak and a camera on loan from Michael Moore so they could do in a matter of months what tens of millions of dollars and a decade of searching by various parties in the UN didn't do...
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When the President brings piles of intel (insert joke here) that supports his need to jump to war, we believed him. After the intel he used to support his march to war was shown to be fabrications on their part or the sources, of course people will change their mind. Only a fool cannot change their mind, especially when the facts support the idea to do so.
Falling back on the fact that Saddam DID need to be taken out of power, isn't an option. If it is, then there are MANY more people that should be taken out of power as well. Iran's president is a known terrorist and yet he is in power. Africa is so full of examples, it's insane. North Korea has a whack job in power that's running his country into the ground. There are even more examples out there. Why does Dubbya's idea of spreading democracy stop only with Saddam, a man who his father wouldn't take out of power? Is it because he realized that'd put us as the world's police, like he and his cohorts were accusing Clinton of trying to do?
With that in mind, Dubbya is full of it. He can't apply the same reasoning to any other country, so it's voided his excuse. He couldn't even follow his own and other republicans "advice" to President Clinton when placing the US military into a full out war.
Clinton may have lied about a BJ to the world, which isn't a great thing to do. But Dubbya has lied to the world to commit our military to a poorly planned war and place them in a country as occupiers, which we are not trained to be. If you don't like him being called a liar, than let me sugar coat it for the republicans out there.... he knowingly used intel that was known to be questionable, and guess what? It WAS as bad as our intel community knew it was.
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Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Did you really think it was irrelevant that Mr. Levin was calling for an INTERNATIONAL Response???
Iraq had DECLARED to the world & the U.N. what they had in their stockpiles - at least twice! The discrepancies in those declarations (missing WMD materials), & lack of evidence that those materials & equipment were properly destroyed were of grave concern. Especially in the aftermath of 9/11.
This was not the administrations reason for going to war though. The reasons given were for his alleged capability to produce a nuclear weapon and alleged ties to Al-Quaeda.
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But thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Friedrich Nietzsche
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What the liberals dont understand is that just because we haven't left yet does not mean we do not have an exit strategy. Out exit strategy is to leave once the Iraqi people can fully and independently support themseleves, and no sooner then that. But I guess since Bush lied about WMDS so we could go in for oil (hah!), we should just leave right away and let the terrorists win. What a great idea! 
- Tim
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The extreme liberals do seem to reflect that idea of pulling out now, but that'd be the worst thing to do at this point. US soldiers are directly being attacked to try and sway US civilian opinion, which seems to be the flavor of the month in the insurgent's tactics.
IMO which is based on what I've heard from the guys I served with, and the various sources of news.....
The Iraqi are tired of the insurgents waging their war against the US in Iraq. Things will only change when the Iraqi can secure their boarder, police everything within and the US can pull out.
I do not like to see our military start something and then just quit, so I do support our troops whole heartedly. We may have went to war for questionable reasons, but there is a greater good to accomplish and I know we will complete all of the primary objectives on our plate.
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Originally posted by Corbett:
Out exit strategy is to leave once the Iraqi people can fully and independently support themseleves, and no sooner then that.
Yeah, that worked real well in Vietnam.
We went in under false pretenses but now we're in, I think most people would agree that it would be a huge mistake and a blow to our credibility if we just pulled out. We've set the stage for a full scale civil war and it would be irresponsible if we just suddenlty abandoned whatever friends and allies we have over there.
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