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As usual, the truth is somewhere down the middle. And as a third party watcher, I can look at both sides of the argument (something which many conservative commentators have too much vested interest to do.

Clinton, on the whole did a good job. The US Government was running a surplus, international relations were excellent. Yes, he was impeached, but by a partisan effort by the right wing. And they lost, and he kept his job. Tough cookies. Besides, if a guy has access to "The Button," I think he should be relaxed and happy, if you catch my drift.

That said, he did propse to invade Iraq. The tipping point was when Madeline Albright was shouted down for bringing the idea up during a speech at a university. The idea went away soon after that.

Furthermore, the US was not a vigilant on his watch. I don't know if that is a policy failing, or simply a comfort zone that came from good international relations, or just poor information sharing.

Bush has several economic policies that concern me. The rich are getting richer under his watch, and corporations are less accountable for their actions. The real results of some of these policies won't be felt for several years, but rest assured, you WILL feel them. And I don't think that the Pax Americanus is necessarily a good way to continue US economic dominance given the rise of China and India (although I think a natural correction is due in their move towards economic power, much like Japan in the early 90s.)

That said, he showed a certain amount of strong leadership in the days following September 11, 2001. But Giuliani was even stronger.

Then there are his close ties to the oil industry. Interesting that the price has gone through the roof under his watch, which benefits his oil company buddies. And the price of gas and oil, for whomever said it was a result of demand, is more now a problem of supply and a lack of refinign capacity. Look at what happened when one of Suncor's refineries went down at the same time as threats came against Arabia. There was a huge jump in price because there was concern about the oil supply and the ability to turn it into gas. The irony is, the high prices might make it feasible to bring greater refining capacity online.

As for the case to invade Iraq...well, let's just say it was never very strong. Colin Powell showed images of trucks leaving chemical plants as evidence. By that logic, and city in the US with a chemicval plant was manufacturing arms, and was worthy of bombing.

The world knew from several sources including an ex-US Marine who was on the weapons inspection team, that Iraq had no WMD capability. And to this day, no WMDs have been found. The world knew that OBL was NOT connected with Iraq, and in fact was hiding in Afganistan and Pakistan. If he isn't in Iraq, and is not connected to Iraq, why invade Iraq? Keep your eye on the ball, man. Even GHW Bush said in his memoirs that invading Iraq would have meant insurgency and years of occupation.

All that said, the troops in Iraq have a dangerous mission under difficult circumstances. It is far from complete. They have the support and respect of many Iraqis, but face death at the hands of others.

My grandfather fought as a pilot in WWI and enlisted as a 45-year-old private in the Canadian Army for WWII. He enlisted because it was the right thing to do. The reasons for invading Iraq are not so clear, but this is: The troops deserve everyone's support, even if you don't support the reasons behind their presence.

But It think that if Iraq's main export was avocados, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.


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He was impeached for lying to the country for Pete's sake!!!! It's a huge character issue, but the left is buried so far up each Clinton's ass common sense doesn't rule..
Originally posted by AJ�³:
Originally posted by RTStabler51:
BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Yes, Clinton was a great president, thaht's why he was impeached,







Did that affect his performance? NO!




Originally posted by AJ�³:
Originally posted by RTStabler51:


that's why he turned down UBL when offered on a silver platter, etc.






On a silver platter? Exagerating a little, are we?



You tell me.

Suden: Mr Klinton we have Bin Laden, do you want him?
Klinton: Aw Skeet Skeet, No!

Originally posted by AJ�³:
Originally posted by RTStabler51:


Gas prices have nothing to do with Bush and more wtih the [B]WORLD demand changing.






So you are telling me that demand has increased worldwide 300% since Clinton was in office, when it was relatively steady before that for a decade! HAHAHAH



Ever heard of the economic booms going on in India and China Probably not.

As for the previous posting about us 'invading' Somalia, that was a botched UN mission that, didn't get the proper support from....well, you know who was President then, although George Sr had a part in it as well.




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Good post Phil!
The only point that I disagree with is the WMD issue. If it was a single point failure within the US Intel community, then I'd agree. However, too many other ICs said the same thing.


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Originally posted by RTStabler51:

Ever heard of the economic booms going on in India and China Probably not.






Sure I have. Does that account for the 300% increase since the 90's? I don't think so. As someone previously mentioned, it has more to do with refinery capacity and supply than demand. But I guess you overlooked that, since it doesn't support your argument.


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Originally posted by Davo:
then I guess making atypical characters in your CEG screenname is the extent of your intellectual capacity.






Another typical conservative. Resorting to personal attacks in an attempt to gain an edge in an argument. So juvenile!


Originally posted by Davo:
Please tell me what Bill Clinton did to keep gas prices affordable.




How about a foreign relation policy that worked? Bush wouldn't know anything about foreign relations if the price of gas depended on it, and it does!


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It's a combination of the two ;-)
Originally posted by AJ�³:
Originally posted by RTStabler51:

Ever heard of the economic booms going on in India and China Probably not.






Sure I have. Does that account for the 300% increase since the 90's? I don't think so. As someone previously mentioned, it has more to do with refinery capacity and supply than demand. But I guess you overlooked that, since it doesn't support your argument.




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Originally posted by AJ�³:


Originally posted by Davo:
Please tell me what Bill Clinton did to keep gas prices affordable.




How about a foreign relation policy that worked? Bush wouldn't know anything about foreign relations if the price of gas depended on it, and it does!




Clinton's foreign relation policies that worked? Which ones? Is it the one where you blow up a Sudanese aspirin factory? Or the one where you blow up the Chinese Embassy? Or is it the one where you lob a few cruise missles at Bin Laden yet pass up the opportunity to have him handed over to you. Or the one where you send Madeline Albright to North Korea and get them to promise to stop developing nuclear weapons. Ooooh, I know! It's the one where a bunch of nuclear secrets dissapear from Los Alamos! That must be the one!!!

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Originally posted by AJ�³:
Another typical conservative. Resorting to personal attacks in an attempt to gain an edge in an argument. So juvenile!



I wasn't trying to gain an edge in this argument as much as I was trying to illustrate how brain dead the idea that terrorism began on January 20th, 2001 is. The 1990s were no paradise, because we now know and understand the war that was organized and waged against us. Doesn't it now seem pretty ridiculous that the president was getting BJs in the Oval Office as terrorist attacks were being planned on us?


Originally posted by jerseycat10:
How about a foreign relation policy that worked? Bush wouldn't know anything about foreign relations if the price of gas depended on it, and it does!



I'll defer to PackRat's post on this.

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Duh Davo, terrorism was born on Sept 11 2001 right when the first plan hit.

There is no terrorist threat!
Originally posted by Davo:
Originally posted by AJ�³:
Another typical conservative. Resorting to personal attacks in an attempt to gain an edge in an argument. So juvenile!



I wasn't trying to gain an edge in this argument as much as I was trying to illustrate how brain dead the idea that terrorism began on January 20th, 2001 is. The 1990s were no paradise, because we now know and understand the war that was organized and waged against us. Doesn't it now seem pretty ridiculous that the president was getting BJs in the Oval Office as terrorist attacks were being planned on us?





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Originally posted by Davo:
Doesn't it now seem pretty ridiculous that the president was getting BJs in the Oval Office as terrorist attacks were being planned on us.




How could you go there, when Bush was reading children books while he knew we were under attack?


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