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Originally posted by Corbett:
I'm not speaking for any scholars of Islamic religion, you are! Though most of the people who follow Islam are peaceful, that does not mean their Koran doesnt have a fundamental element of killing non believers if they will not convert. It does not just say in self defense, but also those who will not convert in many places as posted earlier. I suggest YOU go read it for yourself rather then talking to all the PHDs (Post Hole Diggers) that you know.
so you're saying you (a non-muslim, and obviously uneducated about islam) know better than they do? ok. lol.
Originally posted by Corbett:
One more thing. I find it very interesting that you put your full trust in what the Koran says from a few Islmaic Schollars.
over your uneducated, closed-minded, biased, and shortsighted opinion yes i do.
Originally posted by Corbett:
From what I've read in your previous posts on this board, I doubt you would give the same level of trust and benefit of the doubt to a Biblical schollar. Interesting.
 you have no leg to stand on with that statement. i've never made baseless claims against a whole religion people based on extremism like you are. nor have i ever bad mouthed or mis-interpreted christianity or its principles.
luckily for us and the rest of the world your views are not representative of the christian majority or any majority for that matter. what does that mean? you're on the outer fringe of the group of people you claim to be part of, bka an extremist.
it's ok though. you've stated your view and you're pretty much alone with it. doesn't change the fact that profiling will not work for the reasons we've already discussed.
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Originally posted by BP:
so you're saying you (a non-muslim, and obviously uneducated about islam) know better than they do? ok. lol.
When did I say that? Nice try. Uneducated? If you are comparing me to you on the subject, then hardly! Your facts are based on what people have told you. Mine are based on what I have read from their Koran.
Originally posted by BP:
over your uneducated, closed-minded, biased, and shortsighted opinion yes i do.
More educated on the subject then you I'm sure. Though I tend to find answers for myself, rather then rely on what someone else says, IE - actually reading the Koran.
Originally posted by BP:
you have no leg to stand on with that statement. i've never made baseless claims against a whole religion people based on extremism like you are. nor have i ever bad mouthed or mis-interpreted christianity or its principles.
Thats because you are not educated on either. You rely on what your co-workers and scholars, not your own knowledge of the subject.
Originally posted by BP:
luckily for us and the rest of the world your views are not representative of the christian majority or any majority for that matter. what does that mean? you're on the outer fringe of the group of people you claim to be part of, bka an extremist.
Hah, better check those facts again. I can name many major religious organizations that believe the same thing about Islam. I'm no more an extremist then you are with your PC views on religion.
Originally posted by BP:
it's ok though. you've stated your view and you're pretty much alone with it. doesn't change the fact that profiling will not work for the reasons we've already discussed.
Again, just because this thread is made up mostly of liberals who are uneducated on the subject besides what they hear from other people (yourself included), does not mean I stand alone. In fact, as previously stated, a large protion of the Christian community share the same beliefs.
And profiling does work because a young middle eastern man is much much more likely to blow up a subway then an 80 year old black woman.
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Originally posted by Corbett:
Again, just because this thread is made up mostly of liberals who are uneducated on the subject besides what they hear from other people (yourself included), does not mean I stand alone. In fact, as previously stated, a large protion of the Christian community share the same beliefs.
prove it. i can bet the majority of people christian or not, don't agree with you that islam is a terroristic religion. i also bet many are saying speak for yourself. heck even some of the more respected members of the conservative posse don't agree with you. so stop acting like you speak for the majority of people because you don't.
and again, i've read the koran and since i'm not a muslim i can admit that i need people who understand its teachings better than i do to explain it to me and answer my questions. however you're too self-righteous or too much of a know it all to admit the same.
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Originally posted by BP:
prove it. i can bet the majority of people christian or not, don't agree with you that islam is a terroristic religion. i also bet many are saying speak for yourself. heck even some of the more respected members of the conservative posse don't agree with you. so stop acting like you speak for the majority of people because you don't.
Me prove it? You prove it. Who are the most respected members that disagree? Please do tell.
Originally posted by BP:
and again, i've read the koran and since i'm not a muslim i can admit that i need people who understand its teachings better than i do to explain it to me and answer my questions. however you're too self-righteous or too much of a know it all to admit the same.
I'm not a know it all, just compared to you I guess. Your liberal views will not let you believe that these people want us dead. You say you've read the Koran yet you won't admit it flat out says specifically if a non believer will not convert they should be killed.
- Tim
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Thanks for posting those Koran quotes. Made me think a little.
Originally posted by Corbett:
Torment to Non-believers:
4.56: (As for) those who disbelieve in Our communications, We shall make them enter fire; so oft as their skins are thoroughly burned, We will change them for other skins, that they may taste the chastisement; surely Allah is Mighty, Wise.
Does this recommend torture at random, or in response to a specific condition?
Quote:
Islam Acceptable:
3.85: And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers
No talk of murder here
Quote:
No friends from outsiders
3.118: O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people; they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand.
Friends with Jews, Christians
5.51: O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.
Friends with non believers
4.144: O you who believe! do not take the unbelievers for friends rather than the believers; do you desire that you should give to Allah a manifest proof against yourselves?
No friends with non believers
3.28: Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming.
No friends with parents/siblings if not believers
9.23: O you who believe! do not take your fathers and your brothers for guardians if they love unbelief more than belief; and whoever of you takes them for a guardian, these it is that are the unjust.
Mistrust anyone whoâ??s not Muslim. No mention of murder.
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Fight non-believers
9.123: O you who believe! fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).
Now this one is interesting. It's one of the few that a terrorist could use to justify his actions. Note, though, that it doesn't say "start a fight" - it just says "fight." This site sheds a little more light on the context.
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Kill non-believers
4.89 : They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
This refers to people who became Muslim but then turned back.
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Anti Jewish verses
5.82: Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.
Jews and Chrisitans suck... but no mention of murdering them.
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Smite the neck and cut fingertips of unbelievers
8.12: When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.
Sounds to me like the Lord is talking to the angels here.
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Smite the neck of unbelievers
47.4: So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make (them) prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom (themselves) until the war terminates. That (shall be so); and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and (as for) those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds to perish.
This all applies only to a Muslim who is â??in battle.â? Nothing about starting the battle. Could easily be used as justification by a potential terrorist in Iraq, though.
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Severe Punishment for atheists
10.4: To Him is your return, of all (of you); the promise of Allah (made) in truth; surely He begins the creation in the first instance, then He reproduces it, that He may with justice recompense those who believe and do good; and (as for) those who disbelieve, they shall have a drink of hot water and painful punishment because they disbelieved.
5.10: And (as for) those who disbelieve and reject our communications, these are the companions of the name.
5.86: And (as for) those who disbelieve and reject Our communications, these are the companions of the flame.
Great, but none of this instructs mortals to do any of this.
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Severe Punishment for non-believers
22.19: These are two adversaries who dispute about their Lord; then (as to) those who disbelieve, for them are cut out garments of fire, boiling water shall be poured over their heads.
22.20: With it shall be melted what is in their bellies and (their) skins as well.
22.21: And for them are whips of iron.
22.22: Whenever they will desire to go forth from it, from grief, they shall be turned back into it, and taste the chastisement of burning.
Again, are Muslims to just go around doing this to nonbelievers at random, or is it reserved for a response to a specific condition?
Quote:
Severe Punishment for non-believers
72.23 : (It is) only a delivering (of communications) from Allah and His messages; and whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle surely he shall have the fire of hell to abide therein for a long time.
98.6 : Surely those who disbelieve from among the followers of the Book and the polytheists shall be in the fire of hell, abiding therein; they are the worst of men.
Whatever. The sinners will roast in hell. Sounds just like what my old Baptist neighbor used to tell me.
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Threat of punishment for not going to war
9.38 : O you who believe! What (excuse) have you that when it is said to you: Go forth in Allah's way, you should incline heavily to earth; are you contented with this world's life instead of the hereafter? But the provision of this world's life compared with the hereafter is but little.
9.39 : If you do not go forth, He will chastise you with a painful chastisement and bring in your place a people other than you, and you will do Him no harm; and Allah has power over all things.
How do we know â??go forthâ? means â??blow yourself up in a public place?â? Canâ??t it also just mean â??spread the word of Allah?â?
Quote:
48.16 : Say to those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind: You shall soon be invited (to fight) against a people possessing mighty prowess; you will fight against them until they submit; then if you obey, Allah will grant you a good reward; and if you turn back as you turned back before, He will punish you with a painful punishment.
The first part sounds like Nostradamus or something. But note it says "you will be invited to fight," not "you should start a fight." Another passage that they are using to justify their actions.
Note - The above is not "making excuses for terrorists." We're hopefully past those types of comments in this thread.
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Sorry Viss but your interpretations of those verses is incorrect. For example, cutting off heads and fingertips of the enemy. Thats just one example of an incorrect interpretation. If you really want to interpret what it says I suggest you read the context in which these verses are in, not just the verse itself. I know you are not supporting terrorism, however, you are obviously trying to disprove my belief that Islam sponsors terrorism.
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Originally posted by Corbett:
If you really want to interpret what it says I suggest you read the context in which these verses are in, not just the verse itself. I know you are not supporting terrorism, however, you are obviously trying to disprove my belief that Islam sponsors terrorism.
You are doing the EXACT thing that the Muslim community has been crying out against- twisting of the Koran's teachings. Yes, there are extremist Muslims, just as much as there are extremist Christians. The KKK comes to mind. The people that walk into Planned Parenthood and light the place up with gunfire come to mind.
It's all in the interpretation. The majority of Muslims do NOT, repeat, DO NOT believe in the verses you are quoting here as a tenet by which they should kill. There are many other verses (outnumbering, in fact) that state you should love your fellow man, that if they don't believe in Allah they go to hell, but, you should still love them.
I guarantee you that I could write my own passages, hand them to 50 different people, and get 3 different interpretations- 1.) That it was the greatest way to live ever created. 2.) That it meant you should kill a whole bunch of people. 3.) That it's full of crap and shouldn't be listened to.
I suppose you've NEVER asked yourself "What if I'm interpreting these things wrong?"
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I'm not twisting anything around. I have no reason to. I suggest you read these verses in their context as well.
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first i'd really like to see the information and support from these "major religious organizations that believe the same thing about Islam" as you do. please show me these organizations where they back up your claim that "islam is a terroristic religion." but i can tell you in advance won't find any, cause none of them share your extremist pov! Originally posted by Corbett:
Originally posted by BP:
prove it. i can bet the majority of people christian or not, don't agree with you that islam is a terroristic religion. i also bet many are saying speak for yourself. heck even some of the more respected members of the conservative posse don't agree with you. so stop acting like you speak for the majority of people because you don't.
Me prove it? You prove it. Who are the most respected members that disagree? Please do tell.
Originally posted by BP:
and again, i've read the koran and since i'm not a muslim i can admit that i need people who understand its teachings better than i do to explain it to me and answer my questions. however you're too self-righteous or too much of a know it all to admit the same.
I'm not a know it all, just compared to you I guess. Your liberal views will not let you believe that these people want us dead. You say you've read the Koran yet you won't admit it flat out says specifically if a non believer will not convert they should be killed.
like i said before. luckily for us your views are not representative of the majority or any part there of. this is not a liberal/conservative issue. the center of both groups agree that islam is not a terrorist religion and don't support your claims that it is.
your insistence on saying "islam is a terrorist religion" and muslims as "these people want us dead" is stereotypical of a lop-sided extremist pov held by islamic terrorist. it is an un-american pov and not representative of the stance of the US government. accept it or not, you are holding an extremist pov and it's just as bad as the terrorist saying that westerners/christians want to dominate the world.
since you are biased against my "liberal views" below is a quote from a conservative who knows what they're talking about...
Originally posted by JaTo:
... Islam is no more a violent religion than Christianity is. History bears this fact out. I have read the Koran and while it does condone violence in places, so does the Bible (OT). Extremists aren't usually known for taking a balanced view of things, so expecting them to NOT latch on to particular passages and thoughts to the exclusion of hundreds of pages to the contrary isn't surprising at all.
notice what he says about extremists? re-read what you've said in this thread and think about it because it relates to extremist on both sides of the fence. your views are a perfect example of a conservative/christian extremist.
you can't really come back with anything substantive or educated to say on the above material because you are an extremist. you see things only as you want to and ignore comments from both sides of the fence which prove you're wrong about your views.
you can't accept that systematic profiling is not a viable long term solution because of those views and you've basically proven yourself to be uneducated, closed-minded, lopsided, and irrelevant in this discussion. you should move on to another thread or speak for yourself only instead of trying to act like you represent mainstream christian/conservative views. thanks for proving there are idiots on both sides. i'm done responding to you.
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First off I never said I represented anyone but myself. You sugested I am one of only a few who believe the same way I do and you are sadly mistaken. You were the one who said you could prove the leaders of Christianity do not think Islam is a religion that teaches terrorism, so prove it. And for you of all people to call anyone an extremist is laughable, given your past political views and your views on religion. Hello pot, this is kettle.
I still find it very interesting that you are able to put so much trust in the Islamic people, yet shun anything realted to Christianity and its teachings, as you have proved in previous posts you have made on this forum.
Honestly BP, you are the one without a leg to stand on. You've proven that by coming down to the lowest level of an argument. Calling me names like uneducated, closed-minded, lopsided, extremist.Compared to you, I am much more educated on this subject then you will ever be, no matter how many friends you have that are Islamic. Nor am I close minded about it. If I am reading the Koran out of context I would be open to changing my opinion, but I will not be swayed by someone like yourself who has not formal training on the subject, yet has "friends" who can back him up.
The difference here is that the Bible does not teach to kill those who will not convert or do not believe, no matter how much you want it to. If these guys blow up abortion clinics, thats horrible, and the Bible does not say they should be doing these things. With the Koran on the other hand, no matter how many "good" passages it has in it, it does not change the fact that one of its teachings is the killing of those who will not convert.
And one more thing, you also called me unamerican and no better than these terrorists. Are you crazy? First off, it is my very right to have an opinion on this subject as an american so kiss my butt. And as far as being as extreme as a terrorist, you have to be kidding me. I would never go kill to force my beliefs upon someone, and my Bible does not tell me to do. Honestly BP, who is the close minded one when I cant even have an opinion without being "unamerican" and a "terrorist". Give me a break.
- Tim
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