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I'll agree with that, but only to a point. Only because I think it's more along the line that most Muslims are rational people. I'm sure they take the teachings of the Koran with a grain of salt at times.
OBL and the like have an agenda, and modern Islamic beliefs don't support it. They have to revert to 15th century Islamic beliefs from Islam's height, to even justify his agenda by those terms... and even then he still ignores many aspects of the Koran to do what he does.
Thanks for posting those quotes, I now have some reading to do this week 
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Hey just wanted to say I have not read the Koran cover to cover either and I do not claim to know everything about it. However, I have studied the subject of punishment for non believers in the Koran. I just wanted to make it clear I dont think I am some "better than you" person because of what I have studied on. Thanks.
- Tim
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Originally posted by Corbett:
Originally posted by BP:
Originally posted by Corbett:
...Islam is a terrorist religion.
wow. what an extremist pov. if you're serious about what you've said, then you've completely discredited yourself and your pov.
not only is it completely unsubstantiated, but it isn't supported any fact. not even president bush or anyone in his administration would agree with you. as a matter of fact no one with any kind of knowledge about islam or religion in general would back up your statement.
to label a whole religion as "a terrorist religion" because of a few idiots is so unbelievably ignorant it's hard to believe you seriously meant that. this is one of the main concerns with profiling in any form, people would turn to making these types of blanket assumptions.
Way to take it out of context. You completely mixed up my words. I suggest you go read the Koran to see what it says before you start calling people who HAVE read it ignorant.
i mixed up your words? lol, it must burn having to re-read what you've said and realizing you're completely wrong. don't wussy out now, man up and accept that this is your stance. the way i hear it this is the reason you think profiling is warranted, because muslims follow a religion/islam which has advocated violence in some part of their doctrine. how novel.  not to mention there are examples of extremist in every religion.
the large majority of 'muslims' (arabs,indians,persians,asians, etc) i've worked with and know on a personal level have always been positive and dependable people. even though they may not agree with some of the decisions our gov has made, they are not sympathetic to or supporting of extremist/terrorist actions in any shape, form, or fashion. they are actually very upset that a few islamic scam artist are causing people like corbett to play the birds of a feather rule. well i can say that in my experience they've had the same commitment to peace as a the most 'christian like' christians. i know what the koran says and have read the passage you so annoyingly refer to, but i'm basing my opinion on real world experience and interaction rather than a narrow and shortsighted interpretation of one passage out of thousands.
you need to stop viewing everything as captain literal and accept that the koran is up to interpretation just as any other book. again just for clarification, for you to even remotely infer that islam is a terrorist religion is completely wrong and yes...ignorant.
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Originally posted by JaTo:
My entirely unwarranted (and possibly unwanted) .02 cents:
Racial profiling will work to a limited degree, but only for a while and ultimately, IMHO at too great a cost in terms of public opinion of the government and law enforcement. There needs to be a balance; as it stands today, law enforcement does have their hands tied in areas of investigation due to Constitutional rights that ARE NOT negociable, but they damn-sure need more leeway in their methods of surveillance. Finally, much more sophisticated tools are needed over racial profiling to where race is but one of many variables that are considered. Travel, buying habits, race, religious persuasion, birth origin, scholastic pursuits, reading habits, internet habits, etc., etc. Of course, it takes an Act of God to obtain warrants to the level needed to dig that far today, but there does need to be a greater degree of tracking along those lines...
Originally posted by BP:
...not sure how effectivene it would be in the US in a post 9/11 environment. everyone keeps a close eye on people of ME/arab appearance. they are under a very close microscope by the general population as well as security forces. suspected terror cells/groups can still be investigated through the patriot act.
jato, i would say we've already reached that balance you speak of. implementing official policy that supports profiling isn't necessary imo since we're already doing it. and to your other points, the changes we've made in intelligence gathering since 9/11 as well as extending the patriot act (i think) are proving to be effective in keeping track of and pro-actively pursuing suspects. imo we need to invest more into securing our vital infrastructure where security and disaster recovery plan is very weak. realistically there's only so much you can do outside of martial law to closely monitor some of these organizations.
Originally posted by JaTo:
Racial profiling would possibly nab a few nutcases up front, but I fully believe that it won't do anything to stop the really worrisome events that keep the Intel communities up at night. Al-Qaedas leadership remains intact and regardless of one's thoughts towards their goals, they have some fairly smart SOB's running the show that have managed to elude the largest manhunt in the history of the human race. Yes, it's been Arabs that have been the poster-children of terrorists, but locking a great many eyes on all Arab gentlemen would QUICKLY steer Al-Qaeda to other methods and other races to carry out their desires.
Originally posted by BP:
...i doubt john walker lindh was taken in by the taliban and terror affiliates by chance... 
another reason it won't work.
Originally posted by JaTo:
Finally, racial profiling plays right into what Al-Qaeda wishes most; a larger and spreading rift between Western cultures and Islamic ones, thereby polarizing more and more moderates of both sides.
exactly. so why does this seem to be a non-issue for those advocating systematic profiling. 
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Originally posted by BP:
i mixed up your words? lol, it must burn having to re-read what you've said and realizing you're completely wrong. don't wussy out now, man up and accept that this is your stance. the way i hear it this is the reason you think profiling is warranted, because muslims follow a religion/islam which has advocated violence in some part of their doctrine. how novel. not to mention there are examples of extremist in every religion.
Ahh you are right, I did say taht. I was looking at my last post before you posted. You were referring to the post before that. Anyhow, I do stand by my words that Islam is a terrorist religion because its teachings are specific in that the Koran says to kill those who will not convert in more than one place in the Koran.
Originally posted by BP:
the large majority of 'muslims' (arabs,indians,persians,asians, etc) i've worked with and know on a personal level have always been positive and dependable people. in my experience they've had the same commitment to peace as a the most 'christian like' christians. i know what the koran says and have read the passage you so annoyingly refer to, but i'm basing my opinion on real world experience and interaction rather than a narrow and shortsighted interpretation of one passage out of thousands.
Thats great, I know a lot of nice muslims too. However, that does not change the fact that the Koran says they should kill people like you and me. Wether they choose to follow that or not is besides the point, their religion tells them to kill us. This is not a shortsighted view of it either. As I posted earlier, it is found thoughout the Koran, not just in one verse.
Originally posted by BP:
you need to stop being try to view everything as captain literal and accept that the koran is up to interpretation just as any other spiritual book. basically your argument that islam is a terrorist religion is simply wrong.
Are you suggesting the Koran is speaking not literally but figuratively about killing us? Sorry, but I completely disagree that the Bible is up for interpretation (ie - whatever you want it to say it can say) just like these muslims do who you work with think the Koran does not tell them to kill myself and my family, as well as yours, when it is plainly written in multiple areas of the Koran.
I am not limiting my points to just one line in the Koran, but throughout the entire Koran. And that is why the Koran does in fact condone the acts that OBL, Al-Queda and all others killing our people in the name of Allah, no matter what your buddies tell you or how nice of a person they are.
- Tim
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Originally posted by Corbett:
Are you suggesting the Koran is speaking not literally but figuratively about killing us? Sorry, but I completely disagree that the Bible is up for interpretation (ie - whatever you want it to say it can say) just like these muslims do who you work with think the Koran does not tell them to kill myself and my family, as well as yours, when it is plainly written in multiple areas of the Koran.
how can you be so thick headed!? you must be completely selective in your knowledge of christianity and the usage and interpretation of passages in the bible if you're unware of wrong doings committed 'in the name of chrisianity'. there are extremist christian groups today that twist and misinterpret teachings of the bible to support their sick and irrational take on things.
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Originally posted by BP:
how can you be so thick headed!? you must be completely selective in your knowledge of christianity and the usage and interpretation of passages in the bible if you're unware of wrong doings committed 'in the name of chrisianity'. there are extremist christian groups today that twist and misinterpret teachings of the bible to support their sick and irrational take on things.
Thank you for proving my point. You are correct that people have taken the Bible out of context and twisted it to say what they want it to say and then claim they are doing it in the name of Christianity. However, what OBL and Al-Quaeda are doing is not taken out of context or twisted whatsoever. Throughout the Koran it teaches to kill those who do not believe. Nothing out of context or twisting of words about it. It is very clear as I posted before.
So again I am asking you. Are you suggesting the Koran is speaking not literally but figuratively about killing us throughout these writings?
- Tim
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the koran also says 'do not commit aggression for God does not love aggressors'. for a very short answer to your question, when the koran talks about killing infidels it is meant in the context of self defense, NOT terrorism. but you (like other extremist) want to interpret certain passages as you see fit. the stench of irony should be strong in your nostrils by now...
what about the passover? how about moses and the red sea? the plagues of egypt? all in the name of christianity. does that mean we should go out and kill all people suppresing gods people? NO!!!!
i'm not going to get into religion bashing because it's counter-productive and off topic. the point is even though the koran says what it says, the bible also has teachings which can be interpreted in the same manner and taken to extremes. accept it and move on.
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Originally posted by BP:
the koran also says 'do not commit aggression for God does not love aggressors'. for a very short answer to your question, when the koran talks about killing infidels it is meant in the context of self defense, NOT terrorism. but you (like other extremist) want to interpret certain passages as you see fit. the stench of irony should be strong in your nostrils by now...
WRONG! It is not meant in self defense, I suggest you go read the Koran rather then talking to your buddies at work.
Originally posted by BP:
what about the passover? how about moses and the red sea? the plagues of egypt? all in the name of christianity. does that mean we should go out and kill all people suppresing gods people? NO!!!!
It's quite obvious you do not understand the concept of Old Covenant/New Covenant like the Bible teaches. All those things were under the Old Covenant and God does not do those things any more because of Jesus. I suggest you go read the Bible as well.
Originally posted by BP:
i'm not going to get into religion bashing because it's counter-productive and off topic. the point is even though the koran says what it says, the bible also has teachings which can be interpreted in the same manner and taken to extremes. accept it and move on.
And anyone who thinks God and the Bible says to go kill anyone in His name does not understand the Bible. Unlike the Koran, which tells its followers that anyone who is NOT a Muslim is a threat and should be killed. It's quite clear if you would just read it instead of talking to your buddies at work.
- Tim
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Originally posted by Corbett:
It's quite obvious you do not understand the concept of Old Covenant/New Covenant like the Bible teaches. All those things were under the Old Covenant and God does not do those things any more because of Jesus. I suggest you go read the Bible as well.
this is the same as you taking a few passages out of the koran and branding all followers of islam as terrorist. in the same way as the bible, if you take all of the koran's teachings together it does not support your claim that it is a terrorist religion!
in addition i've discussed this with muslims and people with doctorates in islamic studies and i trust their opinion more than yours. you are wrong to take what you want and disregard the rest. that is how extremist view it. even further, you are not a muslim and you are wrong to say your interpretation of one or a couple passages taken by themselves are representative of all the teachings taken together!! if you are not a believer or scholar of the religion how can you speak for people who are?
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Originally posted by BP:
this is the same as you taking a few passages out of the koran and branding all followers of islam as terrorist. in the same way as the bible, if you take all of the koran's teachings together it does not support your claim that it is a terrorist religion!
in addition i've discussed this with muslims and people with doctorates in islamic studies and i trust their opinion more than yours. you are wrong to take what you want and disregard the rest. that is how extremist view it. even further, you are not a muslim and you are wrong to say your interpretation of one or a couple passages taken by themselves are representative of all the teachings taken together!! if you are not a believer or scholar of the religion how can you speak for people who are?
Its not a few though, did you not see how many I posted earlier? And that is only part of what is taught. Of course your schollar friends arent going to admit it, they want Islam to be known as a peaceful religion even though it teaches differently.
I'm not speaking for any scholars of Islamic religion, you are! Though most of the people who follow Islam are peaceful, that does not mean their Koran doesnt have a fundamental element of killing non believers if they will not convert. It does not just say in self defense, but also those who will not convert in many places as posted earlier. I suggest YOU go read it for yourself rather then talking to all the PHDs (Post Hole Diggers) that you know.
One more thing. I find it very interesting that you put your full trust in what the Koran says from a few Islmaic Schollars. From what I've read in your previous posts on this board, I doubt you would give the same level of trust and benefit of the doubt to a Biblical schollar. Interesting.
- Tim
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