|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 329
CEG\'er
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 329 |
Bigmoney. I didn't read caltours post the way you did. But I won't speak for him. No group should be denied 'access to democracy'. We all know however that big money, fair or not, (I say not) whether its from the right or the left, gets you more access to democracy than those without money. To me he simply sounds troubled by the fact that certain evangelical groups with tons of money have a lot of power and influence on the current administration. And on our government as a whole over the past years.
Caltour. While I share the implied sentiment that money should not get you a disproportionate amount of influence over those without money, I don't think red flags should be raised only when its coming from a group in whom we don't share the same beliefs. I do have a problem though with whoever gets the kind of priviledged access that only big money can buy. Its not fair. Government should be about what's in the best interests of all the people as a whole. Not just for the well financed.
As far as some of these megachurches go. We could argue the same things about their beliefs and agendas as we are about these christian exodus people. Not to say that the megachurches are whack jobs or anythig to that extreme, but the real issue there IMO is whether or not they are being true to God's word and the Bible. That's another thread. Which would get locked before it gets to be over 3 pages long, if that. /Rant over.
1998.5 SVT
I'm working on it.
WTB 2.0L Contique.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,290
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,290 |
If the people in question genuinely didn't want to impose their religion on the entire country, they wouldn't make their religion part of the equation. In other words, if you're anti-abortion, join and contribute to an anti-abortion group. If you're anti-gay marriage, join and contribute to an anti-gay marriage group. And so on. Why do these zealots think it's OK to try to claim their specific sect of Christianity as the official religion of the USA? It's more than just issues here.
E0 #36
'95 Ranger
'82 Honda CX500
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710 |
Nobody claimed it as the official religion of the USA. However, this country WAS founded on Biblical principles and that is what they are trying to bring back into our government. You say if they have an issue like being anti gay marriage, then they should go join an anti-gay marriage group. But guess what, if there were not church there wouldnt be an anti-gay marriage group. Without the church there wouldn't be any reason to stand up against abortion or gay marriage.
- Tim
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710 |
Originally posted by 04marauder:
As far as some of these megachurches go. We could argue the same things about their beliefs and agendas as we are about these christian exodus people. Not to say that the megachurches are whack jobs or anythig to that extreme, but the real issue there IMO is whether or not they are being true to God's word and the Bible. That's another thread. Which would get locked before it gets to be over 3 pages long, if that. /Rant over.
Just out of curiosity, you don't think megachurches are true to God's Word? If so, why? And can you give an example?
- Tim
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,290
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,290 |
Originally posted by Corbett:
Nobody claimed it as the official religion of the USA. However, this country WAS founded on Biblical principles and that is what they are trying to bring back into our government.
As well as other non-religious principles. And freedom of religion was "pretty" important to the founding fathers.
Quote:
But guess what, if there were not church there wouldnt be an anti-gay marriage group. Without the church there wouldn't be any reason to stand up against abortion or gay marriage.
 Not sure what you're saying. The only reason anyone is anti-abortion is because their church tells them to be?
E0 #36
'95 Ranger
'82 Honda CX500
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 329
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 329 |
Originally posted by Corbett:
Originally posted by 04marauder:
As far as some of these megachurches go. We could argue the same things about their beliefs and agendas as we are about these christian exodus people. Not to say that the megachurches are whack jobs or anythig to that extreme, but the real issue there IMO is whether or not they are being true to God's word and the Bible. That's another thread. Which would get locked before it gets to be over 3 pages long, if that. /Rant over.
Just out of curiosity, you don't think megachurches are true to God's Word? If so, why? And can you give an example?
I don't want to generalize. And this is another issue I had with caltour's post. While some churches mega or otherwise are aggressively seeking to influence government on several fronts with what we might all agree are conservative or right wing beliefs, there are still other churches mega or otherwise that see and do things differently.
But to answer your question, it depends. Some churches are guilty of bad theology in my opinion. And they are taking their interpretations as absolute truth and using it to influence public policy.
1998.5 SVT
I'm working on it.
WTB 2.0L Contique.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 753
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 753 |
Originally posted by Corbett:
However, this country WAS founded on Biblical principles
People say this all the time without even thinking about it. What principles in the Declaration of Independence or Constitution are from the Bible?
Freedom? No. The bible teaches obedience to God and governments.
1 Peter 2:13: "For the Lord's sake accept the authority of every human institution, whether of the emperor as supreme, or of governors, as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right."
Paul wrote in Romans 13:1: "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resist authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment."
And this passage from Acts sounds a lot like socialism to me. Could it be where Marx got his ideas?
4:34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
4:35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.
Originally posted by Corbett:
Without the church there wouldn't be any reason to stand up against abortion or gay marriage.
Yeah, John Lennon wrote a song about that. We can only dream.
Dueling Duratecs
'95 SE V6 MTX 0 Mods
'04 Mazda6 S Wagon
'03 Kawasaki Z1000
But thus do I counsel you, my friends: distrust all in whom the impulse to punish is powerful!
Friedrich Nietzsche
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198 |
Originally posted by caltour:
Christian Exodus is instructive because it reveals the real goals of many in the evangelical movement.
What were you saying last week about the CEG tradition of saying things without factual basis?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 637
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 637 |
Originally posted by bigMoneyRacing:
They seek politcal gain through financial means, kind of like the AFL-CIO or ANY other group. Sounds like you don't want a faith-based group to rightly participate in the free selection of this country's leaders. Denying a group access to democracy; you can't be serious! 
Did I say I think evangelicals should be disenfranchised? No. They get to vote just like everyone else.
I said the megachurches are a threat to secular democracy. They already push for displaying the ten commandments in courthouses, for taxpayer support for christian schools, and for prayer in public schools. These initiatives are all unconstitutional, as they advocate erasing the line between church and state, one of the great principles on which this country was founded. They disrespect not only the constitution; they also disrespect the pluralism and religious tolerance that makes our country strong and stable.
And they want so much more. They want Bible Nation. They want their disturbing intolerance for other faiths (and for secularism itself) to be the law of the land. No other religious group I know of seeks to subvert the basic legal principles on which our nation was founded, and to impose its values on us through political influence.
I'll admit my biases here: the evangelical political movement (as expressed by megachurches and others) bugs me because it is overwhelmingly supporting conservative candidates like Dubya. The evangelicals have allied themselves with Big Business in funneling money to the conservative agenda. And it also galls me because Jesus was mostly a bleeding heart liberal, yet His legacy and His message have been highjacked by right-wing corporate interests. He would be appalled, I think, to see the political agenda His followers are promoting.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 443
CEG\'er
|
|
CEG\'er
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 443 |
Originally posted by Corbett:
Nobody claimed it as the official religion of the USA. However, this country WAS founded on Biblical principles and that is what they are trying to bring back into our government. You say if they have an issue like being anti gay marriage, then they should go join an anti-gay marriage group. But guess what, if there were not church there wouldnt be an anti-gay marriage group. Without the church there wouldn't be any reason to stand up against abortion or gay marriage.
This country was founded by a hodgepodge of people of various faiths that recognized the inherent dangers of state sponsored religion from past experience. Yes some of the founders held deepseated religious beliefs (like Washington and Adams), others didn't so much, or felt that faith was much more of a personal matter (like Jefferson and Madison - Madison drafted most of the Constitution), hence freedom from any one religion, and more specifically, no state sponsored religion, hence the separation of church and state. The state of Virginia was actually the 1st state to draft such an amendment into it's own state Constitution IIRC, and James Madison drafted the amendment, since he was a Virginian. The initial amendments of the U.S. Constitution went through many drafts, altered by many people, and if you've ever taken the time to read them, they ranged from heavily faith based references openly speaking specifically of Jesus Christ, down to the more generic wording that generally refers to God as a supreme being. Even after the initial amendments of the U.S. Constitution were ratified by the existing states, many people tried to pass subsequent amendments changing the original wording of earlier amendments to be much more religious in nature from a Christian perspective, to effectively allow state sponsored religion, however these proposed amendments never passed. Many of the original states/colonies had state sponsored religions because that mentality was brought over or in some cases enforced by the countries of origin that held great influence over early America before the Constitution was ratified. Largely these state sponsored religions were Protestant, like Massachusetts, and taxes were collected to support schools and churches at the state level. New Amsterdam, or what is now NYC, was founded as a dutch reformed Protestant colony that sponsored their own dutch reformed religion via taxes for schooling and churches. Our ancestors saw firsthand right here in America in addition to their countries of origin how the intermingling of government and church ultimately compromises both.
I am a born again Christian, and I too have deepseated beliefs as a result, but I have come to understand the importance of the separation of churhc and state. I do agree with some of the precedents set by our courts historically, especially in the 19th century, but I think the 20th century courts have swung the pendulum too far in the other direction in limiting the free exercise of religion in public schools for instance. We are guaranteed the rights to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but not the right not to be offended, as it more and more appears people have grown to expect from our government. People here are increasingly sacrificing their freedom for safety. People don't ever want to be made to feel uncomfortable (read offended), they want to feel protected/safe from everything nowadays, including someone else's personal beliefs and the practices thereof. I'm always reminded of the old adage, those that are willing to sacrifice some freedom in order to find more safety, deserve neither. We must be careful where we head as a country when it comes to these matters.
Ironically, America for all of it's people's complaints, is by far the most overtly religious country in the world. The irony lies in that many people fail to realize that it is indeed the seperation of church and state that has enabled religions to thrive so much here in America. Look at it from a competitive standpoint, freedom encourages competition and cooperation. Churches compete and cooperate just like businesses do. Competition mixed with cooperation means churches, just like businesses, stay relevant to what is ongoing in current society, down to individual people. Our founders saw this fact all too well in seeing how corrupt both church and government became when intermixed, how it hurt both entities, and how state sponsored religions effectively ended the churches ability to remain effective and relevant on many social levels. I believe we must protect separation of church and state, but I also deeply believe we've got to be secure enough as individuals not to ban the practical practice of religious beliefs in public simply because of discomfort on our parts.
|
|
|
|
|
