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Originally posted by Viss1:
Quote:
Not all christians are happy with the direction our leadership has taken this country. My feeling is that there will be a realization in the church that neither of the two major political parties are representing the biblical principles that christians value.
But doesn't that then suggest that they want a party organized around biblical principles? What would such a party look like? Which Bush Administration policies are the moderate Evangelicals currently unhappy with?
Anyway, lets continuue. I was appreciating this thread untill the mud slinging. Its not christian.
Yeah, I did suggest that there is that underlying want or desire but I didn't intend for it to sound that way.
I think I was referring to those politicians and organizations who claim to be God's chosen that are then found to be not at all what they claim, or hypocrites. I don't think a party that appeals to christians has to necessarily trumpet its christian ideals. All it has to do is represent itself and its constituents in such a way that is just and fair to all and is consistent not specifically with biblical principles but rather with sound moral ethics. And the beauty there is that they tend to be the same if biblical principles are not perverted.
Your other question. The Iraq war believe it or not presents several ethical dilemas for many christians. Many churches have been noticebly silent on this issue. The Catholic church though has been one of the more vocal bodies to condemn it. And many other christians share their concerns. Theres much more but I'll leave it here for now.
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The thing is, I'm so suspicious of all politicians that I usually assume they're using their supposed devotion as sort of a smokescreen for their unethical behavior. Many people don't investigate politicians' actions as in-depth as we do, and will therefore automatically consider an overtly religious one "less corruptable" than a secular one. It's potentially a very effective propaganda device.
IMO one can have morality without religion (in fact history suggests there's not necessarily a correlation between the two), and one's past actions are usually a pretty good indicator of his future actions. This is even more so with politicians. Of course there are exceptions, but I will continue to take a very skeptical eye.
Thanks for reminding me about the Catholic church's statements against the war - it does support what you've been saying. Deciding whether to support the war must be a difficult choice for some. Hopefully it has led to increased study about all the issues.
Davo, your point that I'm skeptical about Evangelicals' true motives is well taken. Although I try to keep an open mind, I do indeed have some skepticism based on personal experience growing up (went to school with a few devout Baptists, and they were always preaching to everyone, handing out cards that said we were going to hell, etc... and their parents weren't much better).
This all gets back to my opinion that the religion-based poltical viewpoint generally seeks to impose its view on others (outlawing actions it deems immoral so others can't pursue them), while the secular viewpoint generally allows people to fight their own personal moral battles and choose on their own whether to pursue those actions.
This is another reason why many people are skeptical about religion in politics... "why is someone else's belief worth more than mine?" The "liberal" position on many social issues is to let them remain legal in order for everyone to make their own choice. The "religious" position is to outlaw those issues so only one viewpoint is allowed.
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Hey Corbett - about 12 pages ago you claimed that our country was founded on biblical principles. I'm still curious to know which principles you are referring to. Have you found any yet?
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Originally posted by caltour:
Originally posted by 04marauder:
And maybe go to church every once and a while.
Why? Do I need to go to church in order to have a fulfilling spiritual life? Do I need to go to church in order to get into heaven? What if the churches in my area are havens of SUV-driving Bush Republicans who would rather run over a needy person than feed him?
what if? to quote an uncle of mine "if the queen had (edited for language here) big brass ones she'd be the king. if is irrelevant to what is." what marauder is saying is you need to visit a few different churches and hear a few different surmons in each to get an understanding of what christianity is about. for example, i do not drink and i never have but i have attended a some AA meetings to see what is all about. now i understand my point of view and that of reformed alcoholics. you do not understand what christains are about. all you see is what you read in the newspaper and hear on the nightly news. whenever some idiot attacks abortion clinics or doctors the christians publically denounce the action(s) in any way available including but not limited to surmons, radio broadcasts like 107.9 fm or the jesus christ show on kfi am 640 for 2 examples in our area and trinity broadcast network or tbn for short. the christian community as a whole denouces the action. obl commits a vile act and i do not hear the muslim community as a whole publically and loudly denounce the actions. obliviously many of them do but the point is we do not hear that. as logical beings we are easily capable of realizing that obl and his minions are not what mainstream islam is about but rather it is a radical fringe group just like christian exodus appears to be. christian exodus will never be able to change south carolina into a christian state.
as for the aryan nation comment someone else made.
Originally posted by swazo:
Look at the Aryan Nation, that's a "christian church".
you have got to be kidding me. the aryan nation is no more a christian church than the kkk or a buddist temple and i don't care if a pastor did start it. they are as much christians as the protestants are catholic. but now that i think about it they are a prime example of what obl is...a total nutcase hell bent (no pun intended) on hatemongering and attacking anyone who does not agree.
Last edited by my csvt; 07/29/05 06:31 AM.
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Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Hey Corbett - about 12 pages ago you claimed that our country was founded on biblical principles. I'm still curious to know which principles you are referring to. Have you found any yet?
Hmmmm...
Originally posted by Declaration of Independence:
"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness - That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men...."
Originally posted by John Adams:
"The general principles on which the fathers achieved Independence were ... the general principles of Christianity ... I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that the general principles of Christianity are as etemal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God."
Originally posted by George Mason:
"The laws of nature are the laws of God, whose authority can be superseded by no power on earth,"
Originally posted by Charles Cotesworth Pinckney:
"Blasphemy against the Almighty is denying his being or providence, or uttering contumelious reproaches on our Saviour Christ. It is punished, at common law by fine and imprisonment, for Christianity is part of the laws of the land."
Originally posted by George Washington:
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars."
Originally posted by Patrick Henry:
It cannot be emphasized too strongly that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For this very reason peoples of other faiths have been afforded asylum, prosperity and freedom of worship here.
Originally posted by John Jay:
"Providence has given to our people the choice of their rulers, and it is their duty-as well as privilege and interest- of our Christian nation to select and prefer Christians for their rulers."
Originally posted by United States Supreme Court, 1892:
"Our laws and our institutions must necessarily be based upon and embody the teachings of the Redeemer of mankind. It is impossible that it should be otherwise; and in this sense and to this extent our civilization and our institutions are emphatically Christian... ... ...This is a Christian Nation."
- Tim
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Originally posted by Swazo:
Look in American history for the people who were able to justify slavery, segregation, and pretty much every other hate crime by quoting the bible.
A small step back, look at how Latin America came to be with the help of christians. It's a consistent effort of christians as a whole, through out it's history to try to wipe out religious diversity by force. Granted, that's mostly the Catholic Church itself.
ALL reasons that religon IS seperate our government and why it should stay that way.
To denounce organized religion isn't something learned in college, as you ASSume. I choose to after growing up where I have, going to school where I have, serving my country in the military, traveling across North America, parts of South America and Europe before I denounced them for myself.
This was a while back but its something else you mentioned that caught my attention. I get your main point but if you could elaborate a bit on the Latin America example I would be interested to hear. My initial reaction to this is that its a way to simplistic theory to blame the woes of Latin America on the Catholic Church. I might be convinced that the church contributes to the problems in that region but I have my doubts.
You went on to say that religious diversity has been compromised there too? By the church and by force? Too much generalization. In case you haven't noticed in your travels to Latin America lately, a christian/born again/evangelical movement has been sweeping across nations. Traditionally catholic regions have been switching over to various christian denominations in droves. Its pretty remarkable.
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When I brought up Latin American, the time I was speaking of was when Cortez made his sweep through Mexico and other Spanish pushes to spread the word of Christ through Central/South America. Christianity is as truly a religion of the sword as Islam can be. In the 1500's when the Spanish invaded the Americas they brought the Spanish Inquisition with them. Demanding conversion to Catholicism from all the native inhabitants, backsliders were naturally common. And they were then killed by the Inquisition.
Sure it was to gain power and wealth for the Spanish Empire, but they were only able to justify what they did because they were dealing with "heathens".
That is ONE example of oh-so many. Too many people have been killed "in the name of god" because others didn't share their views, or wouldn't convert. Usually that was an excuse to rob them of their land and worldly goods. That set the stage for what Latin America is now.
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Originally posted by my csvt:
as for the aryan nation comment someone else made.
Originally posted by swazo:
Look at the Aryan Nation, that's a "christian church".
you have got to be kidding me. the aryan nation is no more a christian church than the kkk or a buddist temple and i don't care if a pastor did start it. they are as much christians as the protestants are catholic. but now that i think about it they are a prime example of what obl is...a total nutcase hell bent (no pun intended) on hatemongering and attacking anyone who does not agree.
I do not think that the Aryan Nation represents Christianity at all, but they sure do. I'm glad you noticed what I was pointing out, they are very much like OBL within Islam.
I was going to post a link to the Aryan Nation website, but it is not work friendly, let alone people friendly for that matter. They're a flat out bad joke, and yet no Christian needs to stand up and point out that they don't represent Christianity. Any rational minded person would be able to tell that just be observing their actions or stance.
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Originally posted by Swazo:
When I brought up Latin American, the time I was speaking of was when Cortez made his sweep through Mexico and other Spanish pushes to spread the word of Christ through Central/South America. Christianity is as truly a religion of the sword as Islam can be. In the 1500's when the Spanish invaded the Americas they brought the Spanish Inquisition with them. Demanding conversion to Catholicism from all the native inhabitants, backsliders were naturally common. And they were then killed by the Inquisition.
Sure it was to gain power and wealth for the Spanish Empire, but they were only able to justify what they did because they were dealing with "heathens".
That is ONE example of oh-so many. Too many people have been killed "in the name of god" because others didn't share their views, or wouldn't convert. Usually that was an excuse to rob them of their land and worldly goods. That set the stage for what Latin America is now.
I thought you were referring to modern history. And if you consider this modern history I'm off by about 300 years. No problem. I do stil have a problem with that last statement. ..what Latin America is now. Still too simplistic. As I said, there are countless many reasons that Latin America has the problems it does and the role of the church is but one example of many others. Oh well, this is yet another tangent.
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It really isn't too simplistic if you know some of the modern history of, let's use Mexico for example. Look at how the Castilians' have held onto power there and how they came into it.
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