|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,970
Hard-core CEG'er
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,970 |
Originally posted by cjbaldw:
Originally posted by Swazo:
Our founding father Thomas Jefferson was the guy behind seperation of church and state. I agree with him and am even more amazed with the man since he was in an age where organised religon was forced apon people.
Your statement is incorrect. He was ONE of the guys. Read James Madison's biography, you'll find he felt very much the same as Thomas Jefferson and others did specifically in reference to freedom of religion and state sponsorship religion issues.
In 1776 James Madison was a member of the Virginia constitutional committee, a body that drafted Virginia's first constitution & a Bill of Rights which later became a model for the Bill of Rights amended to the U.S. Constitution. Madison very actively supported religious toleration & was a leading advocate for the separation of church & state. In this work he found a life-long partner & friend in Thomas Jefferson.
Quote:
When peoples religous views are SO important to THEM that they have to force it apon others, that's just like what Osama Bin Laden is doing. Organised religon does not equate morality, ethics and virtue.... history proves this time and time again.
George Washington disagrees with your assessment as my previous post indicates via his farewell address in speaking of the removal of religion from man's ability to be moral and ethical. Still, to each his own. As I've maintained, there is a marked difference between respecting each person's ability to voice their opinions in the public square, based upon whatever they feel is important (religion, faith, secular, etc.), and actively endorsed state sponsored religion. To deny religion has played an important part in our or any other nation's history is to deny our history. Please note I am NOT an advocate of state sponsored religion, and if you bothered to read my posts I think that would be obvious.
Quote:
If people can listen to these money grubbing bible thumpers, than good for them. But not everyone needs to follow suit and their religous veiws should not become law for others of various faiths.
Agreed. You have every right to your opinions of course and I respect your views just as much as anyone else's and your right to express them. I wholeheartedly agree that religion should not become lawful, i.e., no state sponsored religion, however if what we're talking about here is that a person's view should in any way be less valid or pushed aside simply because that person's worldview may be based upon any one religion, that I disagree with vehemently.
Originally posted by Thomas Jefferson:
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter -Thomas Jefferson
I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth. -Thomas Jefferson
Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus. -Thomas Jefferson
Yes, Jefferson was widely known to be a deist. As one of my previous posts alluded to.
Apologies, I didn't mean to imply that he was the sole person behind seperation of church and state. But he seemed to have fought the hardest for it, atleast IMO. He was a christian, though he didn't agree with the gospel of the time.
I agree that religious people belong in politics just as much as an athiest, agnostic or whom ever. Their religous background is what makes them who they are. So you cannot exclude THEM as a person. I live in Salt Lake City and have had to deal with this problem a lot as a non-mormon.
I do not denounce religion at all. I denounce organised religion as a personal choice for myself. I get what Washington was getting to, it was basicly about unchecked power.... that people need to believe in a higher power because one day they will have to answer for their actions. With that in mind, a religous person is more likely to "Do on to others..." more or less, where as an athiest would do whatever they wanted because and keep themselves in mind with a "you only live once, so screw everyone else" outake on life. In my experiance I have seen both types of people on both sides of that fence.
2005 Ford F150 SuperCab FX4
1964 Chevrolet Impala SS
1998 CSVT: 354HP/328TQ @ 10 psi, now gone 
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,970
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,970 |
Originally posted by 04marauder:
I can't say that I blame you and other posters here too much for being turned off of religion in general and christians in particular. You are right about people doing some pretty wicked things to other people throughout history in the name of God. And imo nobody should deny this or minimize the significance of it. Obviously whether or not one believes in God at all adds another troublesome layer here to what is going on with influential Evangelicals in politics.
To this I would say what others have. Everyone, christian and atheist alike have equal rights under the law and the freedom to participate in the democratic process. I also regret to hear that people reject God altogether based on the actions of extremists. It's a mistake to paint all with the same brush.
Personally, I just reject organised religion. Man is foulable, not God. (IMO   )
2005 Ford F150 SuperCab FX4
1964 Chevrolet Impala SS
1998 CSVT: 354HP/328TQ @ 10 psi, now gone
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,970
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,970 |
Originally posted by bigMoneyRacing:
Originally posted by Swazo:
I never said that you were from a corn field and that you know nothing. Yet again, you ASSumed what I meant rather than read what I typed.
1. I came to the same conclusion as Davo, FWIW.
Originally posted by Swazo:
I was pointing towards the fact that you come from a "heavily subsidized corn country " and the farmers are kept afloat buy the right side of our government.
2. Farm subsidies exist because of a strong lobbying group? Hardly.
Originally posted by Swazo:
Your views and comments typically reflect that you don't travel much, so I asked you to see for sure. Now I KNOW that for sure and don't have to ASSume anything You come off very ecocentric, and the fact you have never left America to have ANYTHING else to compare it to says more than you know.
3. International travel alone does not make one worldly.
1. Not what I typed though, is it?
2. Would you say that the corn industry would survive without the subsidies? The main crap that you get from corn is the high fructose corn syrup (In pretty much every soda or any other junk food main ingrediant) and it's one of the main reasons America is so fat. It's been proven to be unhealthy, yet we dump money into that industry to keep it afloat.
3. World travel is important for people to do so they encounter diversity and to see how the rest of the world lives and start to develop a working knowledge of it. Without it, one simply assumes from what they've seen on TV or read, and of course what they have seen first hand in their limited exposure to the world.
I'm not claiming to be worldly by any means. I'm just saying that you have to atleast expose yourself to the world to better understand it.
2005 Ford F150 SuperCab FX4
1964 Chevrolet Impala SS
1998 CSVT: 354HP/328TQ @ 10 psi, now gone
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710 |
Originally posted by Swazo:
Man is foulable, not God.
It's "fallable" not foulable.
Originally posted by Swazo:
"Do on to others..."
It's do UNTO others...
- Tim
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,970
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,970 |
Originally posted by Corbett:
Originally posted by Swazo:
Man is foulable, not God.
It's "fallable" not foulable.
Originally posted by Swazo:
"Do on to others..."
It's do UNTO others...
Is that all you have to comment on? 
2005 Ford F150 SuperCab FX4
1964 Chevrolet Impala SS
1998 CSVT: 354HP/328TQ @ 10 psi, now gone
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198 |
Originally posted by Swazo:
I was pointing towards the fact that you come from a "heavily subsidized corn country " and the farmers are kept afloat buy the right side of our government.
LMAO  ....yeah, that influences my views. It's entertaining how you consider people such as myself to possess their views because of their environment, yet you are such an 'independent, free thinker'.
Originally posted by Swazo:
Your views and comments typically reflect that you don't travel much, so I asked you to see for sure. You come off very ecocentric, and the fact you have never left America to have ANYTHING else to compare it to says more than you know.
Does one need to travel in order to form a respectable opinion? I'm not sure what traveling has to do with anything. I have left America, by the way. If it's convenient for you to dismiss my beliefs because I don't have a passport, then good for you.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710 |
Originally posted by Swazo:
Originally posted by Corbett:
Originally posted by Swazo:
Man is foulable, not God.
It's "fallable" not foulable.
Originally posted by Swazo:
"Do on to others..."
It's do UNTO others...
Is that all you have to comment on?
I think its ironic and funny that you denounce organized religion when you obviously could not even grasp some of its very basic teachings.
- Tim
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198 |
Originally posted by Corbett:
Originally posted by Swazo:
Man is foulable, not God.
It's "fallable" not foulable.
Originally posted by Swazo:
"Do on to others..."
It's do UNTO others...
When you're traveling all around the world forming your wonderful views and opinions, it's kind of hard to fit grammar and spelling classes in.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,970
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,970 |
Originally posted by Corbett:
Originally posted by Swazo:
Originally posted by Corbett:
Originally posted by Swazo:
Man is foulable, not God.
It's "fallable" not foulable.
Originally posted by Swazo:
"Do on to others..."
It's do UNTO others...
Is that all you have to comment on?
I think its ironic and funny that you denounce organized religion when you obviously could not even grasp some of its very basic teachings.
Oh no I misspelled 2 things there, I must not be able to grasp them because of it
Try harder 
2005 Ford F150 SuperCab FX4
1964 Chevrolet Impala SS
1998 CSVT: 354HP/328TQ @ 10 psi, now gone
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710 |
Originally posted by Davo:
Does one need to travel in order to form a respectable opinion? I'm not sure what traveling has to do with anything. I have left America, by the way. If it's convenient for you to dismiss my beliefs because I don't have a passport, then good for you.
Excatly, So if I take a trip to Paris for two weeks my argument has more merrit? That's just stupid. I dont need to go to France to figure out their government does not like America.
- Tim
|
|
|
|
|
