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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198 |
Originally posted by Swazo:
Nope, just trying to prove a point and I have. The fact that sects like Osama Bin Laden's does not represent the whole of islam.
Who would have guessed that? I am yet to be convinced that Islam as a 'whole' denounces the actions of Bin Laden.
Originally posted by Swazo:
Only bible thumpers like yourself think they do, but you get upset about being tied into the same group as abortion clinic bombers and the like 
I'm a Bible thumper? That's news to me.  I'm not tied to abortion clinic bombers, I denounce that activity. That you think I would support the killing of abortion doctors is your problem, not mine.
Originally posted by Swazo:
I seem delusional to you because you assume that what you think is what everyone else should be thinking as well. When they don't, it's "crazy talk" and what not 
It's delusional because it makes no sense, not because I don't think it.
Originally posted by Swazo:
Who said ancient history? I'm talking about MODERN history, like the IRA's religious BS with the UK's state religion. Look in American history for the people who were able to justify slavery, segregation, and pretty much every other hate crime by quoting the bible.
A small step back, look at how Latin America came to be with the help of christians. It's a consistent effort of christians as a whole, through out it's history to try to wipe out religious diversity by force. Granted, that's mostly the Catholic Church itself.
ALL reasons that religon IS seperate our government and why it should stay that way.
Still waiting for you to prove that murder and destruction is a goal of any prominent Christian in the same way murder and destruction is the goal of UBL, a prominent Muslim.
Originally posted by Swazo:
Speaking of which, you speak of so many world issues davo. Do you ever step outside of heavily subsidized corn country or even have a passport?
 I usually get that when someone has lost an argument and has nothing better to say. Where I'm from or where I've been has nothing to do with what I know.
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Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 1,710 |
Originally posted by Swazo:
Then round all Muslim people up and stick them in internment camps to save yourself from these awful religous killers 
I dont have any problem with them rouding anyone up who sponsors any form of terrorism.
Originally posted by Swazo:
The bible has been used to "say" things too. It's amazing how it's interpetations change when tax status is on the line.
Do you have proof the Bible used to say things and now it does not? I would love to see that. And sorry, but I have not seen anyones tax status on the line yet. Churches are allowed to talk about politics, but when they talk about a specific candidate they have to give the other candidate equal time as well.
- Tim
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Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 4,970
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Step outside of your far right box and you might actually see it. Do you want all Muslim people to send you a "I'm sorry for what a handful of a radical sect did to you..." card or something?
You got upset that christians were "tied" to those attackers since they were acting on their own and not all christians. Just pointed out that OBL isn't tied to all of Islam, if you think that you need help.
There are many examples of christians set on death and destruction just as OBL is. I will post them later when work permits.
I'm not at all shocked that you hear that you are close minded and people automaticly wonder if you've ever looked at the world for what it is, and not what you think it is.
Do you have a passport davo? Like dubbya before he became President, I'm guessing that you don't.
2005 Ford F150 SuperCab FX4
1964 Chevrolet Impala SS
1998 CSVT: 354HP/328TQ @ 10 psi, now gone 
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Joined: Jul 2000
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CEG\'er
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Posts: 443 |
Originally posted by Swazo:
Our founding father Thomas Jefferson was the guy behind seperation of church and state. I agree with him and am even more amazed with the man since he was in an age where organised religon was forced apon people.
Your statement is incorrect. He was ONE of the guys. Read James Madison's biography, you'll find he felt very much the same as Thomas Jefferson and others did specifically in reference to freedom of religion and state sponsorship religion issues.
In 1776 James Madison was a member of the Virginia constitutional committee, a body that drafted Virginia's first constitution & a Bill of Rights which later became a model for the Bill of Rights amended to the U.S. Constitution. Madison very actively supported religious toleration & was a leading advocate for the separation of church & state. In this work he found a life-long partner & friend in Thomas Jefferson.
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When peoples religous views are SO important to THEM that they have to force it apon others, that's just like what Osama Bin Laden is doing. Organised religon does not equate morality, ethics and virtue.... history proves this time and time again.
George Washington disagrees with your assessment as my previous post indicates via his farewell address in speaking of the removal of religion from man's ability to be moral and ethical. Still, to each his own. As I've maintained, there is a marked difference between respecting each person's ability to voice their opinions in the public square, based upon whatever they feel is important (religion, faith, secular, etc.), and actively endorsed state sponsored religion. To deny religion has played an important part in our or any other nation's history is to deny our history. Please note I am NOT an advocate of state sponsored religion, and if you bothered to read my posts I think that would be obvious.
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If people can listen to these money grubbing bible thumpers, than good for them. But not everyone needs to follow suit and their religous veiws should not become law for others of various faiths.
Agreed. You have every right to your opinions of course and I respect your views just as much as anyone else's and your right to express them. I wholeheartedly agree that religion should not become lawful, i.e., no state sponsored religion, however if what we're talking about here is that a person's view should in any way be less valid or pushed aside simply because that person's worldview may be based upon any one religion, that I disagree with vehemently.
Originally posted by Thomas Jefferson:
The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter -Thomas Jefferson
I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth. -Thomas Jefferson
Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man....Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus. -Thomas Jefferson
Yes, Jefferson was widely known to be a deist. As one of my previous posts alluded to.
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198 |
Originally posted by Swazo:
Step outside of your far right box and you might actually see it. Do you want all Muslim people to send you a "I'm sorry for what a handful of a radical sect did to you..." card or something?
Yes, as a matter of fact I do. Christians did it when the abortion clinics were attacked. When evil is done in the name of a religion, it is the responsibility of the non-extreme members of that religion to assure people that that is not accepted. This has been minimal for Islamoterrorism.
Originally posted by Swazo:
I'm not at all shocked that you hear that you are close minded and people automaticly wonder if you've ever looked at the world for what it is, and not what you think it is.
And I'm not shocked that you went the 'You're from a cornfield so you don't know anything' route when you had nothing else to say. I do not have a passport, but I'm confused as to why I would need one if I never travel outside of North America.
Last edited by Davo; 07/28/05 03:17 PM.
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I can't say that I blame you and other posters here too much for being turned off of religion in general and christians in particular. You are right about people doing some pretty wicked things to other people throughout history in the name of God. And imo nobody should deny this or minimize the significance of it. Obviously whether or not one believes in God at all adds another troublesome layer here to what is going on with influential Evangelicals in politics.
To this I would say what others have. Everyone, christian and atheist alike have equal rights under the law and the freedom to participate in the democratic process. I also regret to hear that people reject God altogether based on the actions of extremists. It's a mistake to paint all with the same brush.
1998.5 SVT
I'm working on it.
WTB 2.0L Contique.
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,290
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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Posts: 3,290 |
Originally posted by 04marauder:
And the more moderate groups you speak of not only exist but they exist within the church itself.
That's encouraging to hear as far as my personal views go. FWIW I believe you when you say moderates exist in the Evangelical churches, at least in the sense that they don't deem it necessary to turn the USA into a theocracy.
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Not all christians are happy with the direction our leadership has taken this country. My feeling is that there will be a realization in the church that neither of the two major political parties are representing the biblical principles that christians value.
But doesn't that then suggest that they want a party organized around biblical principles? What would such a party look like? Which Bush Administration policies are the moderate Evangelicals currently unhappy with?
E0 #36
'95 Ranger
'82 Honda CX500
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Joined: Apr 2002
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
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Originally posted by Viss1:
I believe you when you say moderates exist in the Evangelical churches, at least in the sense that they don't deem it necessary to turn the USA into a theocracy.
Please keep in mind that those who want to turn the USA into a theocracy are members of the fringe and a very small portion of all in the evangelical community. You make it seem like you need to be convinced that most evangelicals do not want to turn the USA into a theocracy.
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Joined: Aug 2002
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by Swazo:
Speaking of which, you speak of so many world issues davo. Do you ever step outside of heavily subsidized corn country or even have a passport?
Originally posted by Davo:
Originally posted by Swazo:
I'm not at all shocked that you hear that you are close minded and people automaticly wonder if you've ever looked at the world for what it is, and not what you think it is.
And I'm not shocked that you went the 'You're from a cornfield so you don't know anything' route when you had nothing else to say. I do not have a passport, but I'm confused as to why I would need one if I never travel outside of North America.
I never said that you were from a corn field and that you know nothing. Yet again, you ASSumed what I meant rather than read what I typed.
I was pointing towards the fact that you come from a "heavily subsidized corn country " and the farmers are kept afloat buy the right side of our government. Your views and comments typically reflect that you don't travel much, so I asked you to see for sure. Now I KNOW that for sure and don't have to ASSume anything You come off very ecocentric, and the fact you have never left America to have ANYTHING else to compare it to says more than you know.
2005 Ford F150 SuperCab FX4
1964 Chevrolet Impala SS
1998 CSVT: 354HP/328TQ @ 10 psi, now gone
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,149
Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 4,149 |
Originally posted by Swazo:
I never said that you were from a corn field and that you know nothing. Yet again, you ASSumed what I meant rather than read what I typed.
I came to the same conclusion as Davo, FWIW.
Originally posted by Swazo:
I was pointing towards the fact that you come from a "heavily subsidized corn country " and the farmers are kept afloat buy the right side of our government.
Farm subsidies exist because of a strong lobbying group? Hardly.
Originally posted by Swazo:
Your views and comments typically reflect that you don't travel much, so I asked you to see for sure. Now I KNOW that for sure and don't have to ASSume anything You come off very ecocentric, and the fact you have never left America to have ANYTHING else to compare it to says more than you know.
International travel alone does not make one worldly.
-- 1999 SVT #220 --
In retrospect, it was all downhill from here. RIP, CEG.
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