Originally posted by cjbaldw: This country was founded by a hodgepodge of people of various faiths that recognized the inherent dangers of state sponsored religion from past experience. Yes some of the founders held deepseated religious beliefs (like Washington and Adams), others didn't so much, or felt that faith was much more of a personal matter (like Jefferson and Madison - Madison drafted most of the Constitution), hence freedom from any one religion, and more specifically, no state sponsored religion, hence the separation of church and state. The state of Virginia was actually the 1st state to draft such an amendment into it's own state Constitution IIRC, and James Madison drafted the amendment, since he was a Virginian. The initial amendments of the U.S. Constitution went through many drafts, altered by many people, and if you've ever taken the time to read them, they ranged from heavily faith based references openly speaking specifically of Jesus Christ, down to the more generic wording that generally refers to God as a supreme being. Even after the initial amendments of the U.S. Constitution were ratified by the existing states, many people tried to pass subsequent amendments changing the original wording of earlier amendments to be much more religious in nature from a Christian perspective, to effectively allow state sponsored religion, however these proposed amendments never passed. Many of the original states/colonies had state sponsored religions because that mentality was brought over or in some cases enforced by the countries of origin that held great influence over early America before the Constitution was ratified. Largely these state sponsored religions were Protestant, like Massachusetts, and taxes were collected to support schools and churches at the state level. New Amsterdam, or what is now NYC, was founded as a dutch reformed Protestant colony that sponsored their own dutch reformed religion via taxes for schooling and churches. Our ancestors saw firsthand right here in America in addition to their countries of origin how the intermingling of government and church ultimately compromises both.
I am a born again Christian, and I too have deepseated beliefs as a result, but I have come to understand the importance of the separation of churhc and state. I do agree with some of the precedents set by our courts historically, especially in the 19th century, but I think the 20th century courts have swung the pendulum too far in the other direction in limiting the free exercise of religion in public schools for instance. We are guaranteed the rights to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but not the right not to be offended, as it more and more appears people have grown to expect from our government. People here are increasingly sacrificing their freedom for safety. People don't ever want to be made to feel uncomfortable (read offended), they want to feel protected/safe from everything nowadays, including someone else's personal beliefs and the practices thereof. I'm always reminded of the old adage, those that are willing to sacrifice some freedom in order to find more safety, deserve neither. We must be careful where we head as a country when it comes to these matters.
Ironically, America for all of it's people's complaints, is by far the most overtly religious country in the world. The irony lies in that many people fail to realize that it is indeed the seperation of church and state that has enabled religions to thrive so much here in America. Look at it from a competitive standpoint, freedom encourages competition and cooperation. Churches compete and cooperate just like businesses do. Competition mixed with cooperation means churches, just like businesses, stay relevant to what is ongoing in current society, down to individual people. Our founders saw this fact all too well in seeing how corrupt both church and government became when intermixed, how it hurt both entities, and how state sponsored religions effectively ended the churches ability to remain effective and relevant on many social levels. I believe we must protect separation of church and state, but I also deeply believe we've got to be secure enough as individuals not to ban the practical practice of religious beliefs in public simply because of discomfort on our parts.
You are so spot on, I can't believe it. The biggest problem to me is that people are knee-jerk reactionist. The thing people forget that the Government cannot endorse religion and that is as far as the constitution goes. Sure people can practice as they please as long as Government institutions are not the ones backing it.
I think we must now look at Religions groups as we do business groups or lobbyists. Religion is now (as was/is the way of the Catholic church, the Catholic Church was the largest land holder in Europe pre-reformation) run like a business. Lobbyist representing various religious groups have a lot of power in the legislature at the state, local, and national level. This is part of the bigger problem of special interest groups. The bigger problem is the government is no longer representing the interests of the people but big corporations, religious or otherwise.
Originally posted by my csvt:
Originally posted by Nate S: because their "moral roots" are...um...slightly jaded by their very strong beliefs in biblical principles
i know what you mean but just to point out an example of biblical principles:
These are indeed morals or moral law that also exist in the Bible, but they also exist in other religions and in general they are basic human morals. The US is a Liberal country; created in the time of Classic Liberalism. Classic Liberalism makes laws from morals that are not necessarily from any specific person or people other than the population (in one for or another; direct or indirect democracy for example) With this foundation and knowing that some of the founding fathers were universalists or just kept religion a personal matter I find it hard to believe the US is founded in Biblical Morals, morals existed long before the Bible.
Sorry for the extremely long post. I was waiting for the inspiration to write something here. This has been a surprisingly good thread.
