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Originally posted by my csvt:
Originally posted by Nate S:
because their "moral roots" are...um...slightly jaded by their very strong beliefs in biblical principles
i know what you mean but just to point out an example of biblical principles:
agreed, but you shouldn't be applying biblical principles to laws. you should be applying your own MORAL principles. there is a difference...think about it. however, there may not be a difference for some people, because their moral principles are BASED on the biblical principles that they have been spoonfed over the years by their church.
anyways, the principles advocated by this site are just...scary
some of their principles, inferred from statements on the main page of the site:
-Sodomite and lesbian "marriage" is now legal in Massachusetts (and coming soon to a neighborhood near you)
-Children who pray in public schools are subject to prosecution
-Our schools continue to teach the discredited theory of Darwinian evolution 1 2
-The Bible is still not welcome in schools except under unconstitutional FEDERAL guidelines
-The 10 Commandments remain banned from public display
-Sodomy is now legal AND celebrated as "diversity" rather than condemned as perversion
1998 T-Red CSVT 3.0L
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davo, on different occasions i have heard him use it both ways. i just used lazy to try to keep this from becoming a Rep vs Dem arguement.
00 black/tan svt, #2052 of 2150, born 2/1/00
formerly known as my csvt
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." -Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Originally posted by Davo:
I don't see how this answers my question. You say they're unique, but then start saying random things relevant to the 'separation of church and state' issue. If you don't want to answer it, that's fine with me.
You're right, that was not a complete answer. Here is the rest of it:
Religious groups were treated as separate under the law for a good reason. Madison and the other founding fathers knew that churches had to be kept strictly segregated from political life because they would almost certainly exert disprortionate influence on our government and destabilize our democracy. They knew that churches were among the only organizations that had the wealth, bureaucratic skills and power (not to mention the particular emotional power of religious faith) to dominate political life in such a way that it would no longer really be a democracy. They remembered the historical lessons of old Europe, where clerics had long been adept at scheming for domination of nation states. Even in the 1700s, American churches were easily powerful enough to dominate our fledgling government. Madison and Jefferson and the others therefore knew that separation of church and state was essential. That's why they wrote into our Constitution the rules I discussed in my last post.
For the same reasons, churches today should restrain themselves from political activity. Democracy is all about letting everyone have equal say. Churches could easily distort and even subvert democracy, as they harness the unique combined power of religious belief, tons of cash, and extensive grass roots organization.
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Originally posted by caltour:
Churches could easily distort and even subvert democracy, as they harness the unique combined power of religious belief, tons of cash, and extensive grass roots organization.
They're the opiate of the people, man.
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Originally posted by 96RedSE5Sp:
Originally posted by caltour:
Churches could easily distort and even subvert democracy, as they harness the unique combined power of religious belief, tons of cash, and extensive grass roots organization.
They're the opiate of the people, man.
"Religion is the opiate of the masses"
-marx
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Originally posted by Nate S:
"Religion is the opiate of the masses"
-marx
He also said "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy"
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Originally posted by caltour:
For the same reasons, churches today should restrain themselves from political activity. Democracy is all about letting everyone have equal say.
There is some hypocracy embedded in those statements, no? Unless you don't really believe in democracy.
Originally posted by caltour:
Churches could easily distort and even subvert democracy, as they harness the unique combined power of religious belief, tons of cash, and extensive grass roots organization.
The burden is on the Constitution to protect this country, not on religious groups to do so. The Constitution can, should, and will fight off attacks from groups such as Christian Exodus.
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I hate all religion in general. 
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OP
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Originally posted by Nate S:
any site that refers to evolution as the "discredited theory of Darwinian evolution" loses complete respect from me 
Haha...You actually think the "theory of Darwinian evolution" has any truth to it? Show me one bit of evidence that can link us to apes. Show me the missing link. I suppose you could say what all Darwinian theorists say, "It's out there, we just have to find it." Whereas one just has to look around his environment to see the prrof of the immense complexity of everything that only a maker and designer could have created. Do you think a computer could have come from thin air? How about our highway system? Or, how about the encyclopedia Britannica? That's what our bodies are like, but on a much grander scale. The computer, highway system, and the encyclopedia did not just pop out of thin air. Nor did our bodies, as evolutionary theory likes to suggest. Our bodies are too complex to have developed through evolution.
What I'm speaking of is "irreducible complexity." Go look it up, just google it, and you should get a pretty good idea of what I'm talking about.
Originally posted by Nate S:
furthermore, one of the purposes of the US constitution is seperation of church and state, not to apply christian principles to run the country
This site is scary. Very scary.
I suppose if you were a member of the ACLU then sure, that's exactly what the consitution was written for, but NOBODY can point out the words "separation of church and state" in the Constitution itself. Why? Because it is not in there. In fact, it states that "the government shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or the free exercise thereof." Where does it say separation of church and state? Did I miss something, because it doesn't matter how many times I read it, it is not in there.
Originally posted by Nate S:
Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
Biblical principles work, there are no exceptions.
Um...yeah...no comment there.
Why not? Make a comment. Give me one exception.
As for www.christianexodus.com. I don't support them, nor am I signing my family up to move to South Carolina to secede from the union. I find it cultish and not what God has called us to do. Biblical principles work in everyday life. If this group of people think they are going to change the world by setting up a utopian society, they won't. Utopia's, even Christian ones, don't work because this world is not perfect. Somebody will let the power go to their head and something will go awry. I found it interesting that this group was doing this, and just wanted to see what others thought...
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Originally posted by cjbaldw:
This country was founded by a hodgepodge of people of various faiths that recognized the inherent dangers of state sponsored religion from past experience. Yes some of the founders held deepseated religious beliefs (like Washington and Adams), others didn't so much, or felt that faith was much more of a personal matter (like Jefferson and Madison - Madison drafted most of the Constitution), hence freedom from any one religion, and more specifically, no state sponsored religion, hence the separation of church and state. The state of Virginia was actually the 1st state to draft such an amendment into it's own state Constitution IIRC, and James Madison drafted the amendment, since he was a Virginian. The initial amendments of the U.S. Constitution went through many drafts, altered by many people, and if you've ever taken the time to read them, they ranged from heavily faith based references openly speaking specifically of Jesus Christ, down to the more generic wording that generally refers to God as a supreme being. Even after the initial amendments of the U.S. Constitution were ratified by the existing states, many people tried to pass subsequent amendments changing the original wording of earlier amendments to be much more religious in nature from a Christian perspective, to effectively allow state sponsored religion, however these proposed amendments never passed. Many of the original states/colonies had state sponsored religions because that mentality was brought over or in some cases enforced by the countries of origin that held great influence over early America before the Constitution was ratified. Largely these state sponsored religions were Protestant, like Massachusetts, and taxes were collected to support schools and churches at the state level. New Amsterdam, or what is now NYC, was founded as a dutch reformed Protestant colony that sponsored their own dutch reformed religion via taxes for schooling and churches. Our ancestors saw firsthand right here in America in addition to their countries of origin how the intermingling of government and church ultimately compromises both.
I am a born again Christian, and I too have deepseated beliefs as a result, but I have come to understand the importance of the separation of churhc and state. I do agree with some of the precedents set by our courts historically, especially in the 19th century, but I think the 20th century courts have swung the pendulum too far in the other direction in limiting the free exercise of religion in public schools for instance. We are guaranteed the rights to pursue life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, but not the right not to be offended, as it more and more appears people have grown to expect from our government. People here are increasingly sacrificing their freedom for safety. People don't ever want to be made to feel uncomfortable (read offended), they want to feel protected/safe from everything nowadays, including someone else's personal beliefs and the practices thereof. I'm always reminded of the old adage, those that are willing to sacrifice some freedom in order to find more safety, deserve neither. We must be careful where we head as a country when it comes to these matters.
Ironically, America for all of it's people's complaints, is by far the most overtly religious country in the world. The irony lies in that many people fail to realize that it is indeed the seperation of church and state that has enabled religions to thrive so much here in America. Look at it from a competitive standpoint, freedom encourages competition and cooperation. Churches compete and cooperate just like businesses do. Competition mixed with cooperation means churches, just like businesses, stay relevant to what is ongoing in current society, down to individual people. Our founders saw this fact all too well in seeing how corrupt both church and government became when intermixed, how it hurt both entities, and how state sponsored religions effectively ended the churches ability to remain effective and relevant on many social levels. I believe we must protect separation of church and state, but I also deeply believe we've got to be secure enough as individuals not to ban the practical practice of religious beliefs in public simply because of discomfort on our parts.
You are so spot on, I can't believe it. The biggest problem to me is that people are knee-jerk reactionist. The thing people forget that the Government cannot endorse religion and that is as far as the constitution goes. Sure people can practice as they please as long as Government institutions are not the ones backing it.
I think we must now look at Religions groups as we do business groups or lobbyists. Religion is now (as was/is the way of the Catholic church, the Catholic Church was the largest land holder in Europe pre-reformation) run like a business. Lobbyist representing various religious groups have a lot of power in the legislature at the state, local, and national level. This is part of the bigger problem of special interest groups. The bigger problem is the government is no longer representing the interests of the people but big corporations, religious or otherwise.
Originally posted by my csvt:
Originally posted by Nate S:
because their "moral roots" are...um...slightly jaded by their very strong beliefs in biblical principles
i know what you mean but just to point out an example of biblical principles:
These are indeed morals or moral law that also exist in the Bible, but they also exist in other religions and in general they are basic human morals. The US is a Liberal country; created in the time of Classic Liberalism. Classic Liberalism makes laws from morals that are not necessarily from any specific person or people other than the population (in one for or another; direct or indirect democracy for example) With this foundation and knowing that some of the founding fathers were universalists or just kept religion a personal matter I find it hard to believe the US is founded in Biblical Morals, morals existed long before the Bible.
Sorry for the extremely long post. I was waiting for the inspiration to write something here. This has been a surprisingly good thread.
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