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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 443
CEG\'er
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CEG\'er
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 443 |
Originally posted by caltour:
I said the megachurches are a threat to secular democracy. They already push for displaying the ten commandments in courthouses, for taxpayer support for christian schools, and for prayer in public schools. These initiatives are all unconstitutional, as they advocate erasing the line between church and state, one of the great principles on which this country was founded. They disrespect not only the constitution; they also disrespect the pluralism and religious tolerance that makes our country strong and stable.
I don't have much time just now, so this will be short. It is indeed the separation of church and state that you love so much that is what allows churches to remain relevant and to wield power as is characterized here in your words.
Specifically regarding public school, it wasn't until the 20th century when the federal gov't became involved in funding and legislating the public school systems that many of the issues of practicing religion in "state sponsored" schools became an issue. As we've seen, society always finds a way around such problems, as is evidenced by the great increase in private schooling and homeschooling and the increasing abandonment of the public school systems by those who have the means. Yes, we Americans love to create what we want! At least we have the freedom to be able to do so. Government by it's very nature always struggles to stay relevant to society, and IMHO the federalization of the schooling systems was the worst route we could have chosen, as all of us can see our public schools are failing to be relevant to society's needs. We must not fall for what seems to be the simplest solution, which is to use the federal gov't to solve the nation's problems. Our strength as a nation lies in the individual states handling their own specific issues. Jefferson often spoke about the "chains of the constitution" in reference to keeping severe limits on the federal gov't. We would be wise to heed his words.
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Posts: 678
Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 678 |
Originally posted by Corbett:
... However, this country WAS founded on Biblical principles and that is what they are trying to bring back into our government.
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Really? Principles such as no taxation wihout representation, democratically elected leadership, the right of free white males to vote for their leaders, a tripartite government with a bicameral legislature? Slaves being counted as three fifths of a person for census purposes? Respect for the sovereignty of the smaller states as an inducement to joining the union? A powerful chief executive? A complex system of checks and balances to prevent any one of the three main branches of government from assuming too much power?
Which of these principles is a biblical principal?
Have you ever read our constitution or the earlier Articles of Confederation? Can you point out which of the provisions in our constitution are biblically derived?
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 637
Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 637 |
Originally posted by Davo:
Originally posted by caltour:
Christian Exodus is instructive because it reveals the real goals of many in the evangelical movement.
What were you saying last week about the CEG tradition of saying things without factual basis?
Are you saying you disagree that the goal of Christian Exodus, and many other evangelicals, is to gain secular political power? They openly admit it.
Ordinarily, I have no problem responding to a request for further information. I am happy to post supporting articles and other factual sources whenever I can. But there has already been a link posted in this thread which clearly showed that Christian Exodus openly admits to its quest for political power (see the section entitled "Plan of Action").
And the Atlantic Monthly article I referenced contains explicit quotes from leaders of several megachurches, openly admitting that they are closely tied to the Bush Administration and they seek more political influence in the future.
The evangelical megachurches are not being coy about their political ambitions. Read what has been posted about that already and see if you still disagree.
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Joined: Apr 2002
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198 |
Originally posted by caltour:
Ordinarily, I have no problem responding to a request for further information. I am happy to post supporting articles and other factual sources whenever I can. But there has already been a link posted in this thread which clearly showed that Christian Exodus openly admits to its quest for political power (see the section entitled "Plan of Action").
Yes, CE openly admits to it, but what about the goals of 'many in the evangelical movement'? Where is your documented evidence of that? I guarantee you we can turn this into another "what does 'many' mean?" argument.
Originally posted by caltour:
And the Atlantic Monthly article I referenced contains explicit quotes from leaders of several megachurches, openly admitting that they are closely tied to the Bush Administration and they seek more political influence in the future.
Seeking political influence and making the United States a theocracy are two separate goals. Does Jesse Jackson wish to make the United States an offically black country by trying to garner more political influence for the black community?
[wait, the answer to that may be yes...]
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Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,290
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 3,290 |
Originally posted by Davo:
Yes, CE openly admits to it, but what about the goals of 'many in the evangelical movement'? Where is your documented evidence of that?
Are you implying that the political aspirations of CE are out of whack with other evangelical groups? Beause the National Association of Evangelicals must be wasting their time then.
BTW, thanks for posting, cjbaldw. IIRC we've clashed but also agreed on a few topics in the past, and your arguments have always been knowledgeable and well-presented.
E0 #36
'95 Ranger
'82 Honda CX500
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Joined: Apr 2002
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Posts: 6,198 |
Originally posted by Viss1:
Are you implying that the political aspirations of CE are out of whack with other evangelical groups? Beause the National Association of Evangelicals must be wasting their time then.
Originally posted by nae:
Mission Statement
The mission of the National Association of Evangelicals is to extend the kingdom of God through a fellowship of member denominations, churches, organizations, and individuals, demonstrating the unity of the body of Christ by standing for biblical truth, speaking with a representative voice, and serving the evangelical community through united action, cooperative ministry, and strategic planning.
Where do you get the desire to convert the U.S. into a theocracy from this? 
CE wants to develop the United States into a theocracy. Do 'many' evangelical or other religious communities aim to do this? caltour stated so, and I'm waiting for his facts that will back that up.
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
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Originally posted by Davo:
CE wants to develop the United States into a theocracy. Do 'many' evangelical or other religious communities aim to do this? caltour stated so , and I'm waiting for his facts that will back that up.
Davo, I said that CE and many other evangelicals are hell-bent (ha ha) for political power. I didn't say they want a theocracy. Find where I typed the word "theocracy" and I'll give you a dollar.
Davo, just read the NEA website. It's loaded with their legislative initiatives. It shows they are driving hard to influence politics. Did you read the section entitled "Government Affairs"?
Oh, and here's an article about militant, aggressive megachurches (including NEA chairman Pastor Ted's New Life Church in Colorado Springs) and Pastor Ted's weekly meetings with President Bush: Harper's Magazine on the megachurches.
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Joined: Apr 2002
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198 |
Originally posted by caltour:
Davo, I said that CE and many other evangelicals are hell-bent (ha ha) for political power. I didn's say they want a theocracy. Find where I typed the word "theocracy" and I'll give you a dollar.
Originally posted by caltour:
Christian Exodus is instructive because it reveals the real goals of many in the evangelical movement. Like many evangelical groups, CE wants to expand its influence to the secular realm. It openly admits to seeking political power. It wants to remake the U.S. government into Bible Nation.
So...'Bible Nation' means something other than 'theocracy'?
Originally posted by caltour:
Davo, just read the NEA website. It's loaded with their legislative initiatives. It shows they are driving hard to influence politics.
Again, the desire for political influence and the desire to convert a nation into a theocracy are two different things. Are you saying religious groups should be unique social groups in that they refrain from attempting to gain political influence?
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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 678
Veteran CEG\'er
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Veteran CEG\'er
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Posts: 678 |
Originally posted by Davo:
Are you saying religious groups should be unique social groups in that they refrain from attempting to gain political influence?
Correct me I'm wrong, but aren't tax exempt groups such as churches and many other religious organizations prohibited from actively attempting to gain political influence?
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Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 2,489
Hard-core CEG\'er
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Hard-core CEG\'er
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any site that refers to evolution as the "discredited theory of Darwinian evolution" loses complete respect from me 
furthermore, one of the purposes of the US constitution is seperation of church and state, not to apply christian principles to run the country
This site is scary. Very scary.
Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
Biblical principles work, there are no exceptions.
Um...yeah...no comment there.
1998 T-Red CSVT 3.0L
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