Originally posted by caltour:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by caltour:
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
the bad guys (and good guys) ARE listening to everything we say. I guess the real question is what DO we say. I do know we should not use terms like "quagmire" or "we are war criminals" or "prisoner abuse"..


Dan, are you saying that we should not allow open discussion of Bush's decision to invade Iraq? Are you saying we should not allow dissent re: the war in Iraq?



He's saying that the time for that is after the troops come home.



I respect your argument, but you are wrong about this.

It is our responsibility as citizens to voice our objections to the war immediately and publicly. It's our JOB to make it politically difficult for Bush to conduct the war. If we do not, we are allowing the Administration a free pass to wage war whenever it wants, no matter how ill-advised the war may be. Think about it: if we followed your advice, any president could start a war to enrich his corporate cronies, and avenge his daddy, or to boost his sagging popularity (or for any other reason that is not in our national interest), and he would get away with it completely, every time. All he would have to do is make sure the war continues until the end of his term, and he's home free.

Also, as a practical matter, we must dissent while the war is going on lives.





Caltour my friend,

I think open discussion (citizen or senator) of how we got into the war is fine, in the PAST TENSE...it should occur with every war as we seek to dissect the events and what was done right and wrong. Heck, we are still debating the genesis of WWI and whether or not we allowed Pearl harbor to be sacked just to push the American people to war. I think ordinary citizens are within their rights to say nearly whatever they want (until they start inciting violence against Americans).

I think ELECTED representatives on the other hand MUST put on a poker face to the world in so far as the CURRENT situation and future outlook. "My fellow Americans, while I have GRAVE concerns about how we got into this war, it is clear we are doing the right thing now and further, we are kicking butt and will stay the course. I believe with my suggestions, that we can kick butt even harder".

I do believe in government transparency but there are some secrets that must be kept and some discussions should not occur in front of a microphone. They can and should say WHATEVER they feel behind closed doors, up to and including impeaching the president provided they do NOT, while troups are in harms way,jepordize the mission. And make no mistake..retoric that we have been hearing "quagmire", "failing war", "Vietnam", "we are war criminals", or "prisoner abuse/gulag" DOES hurt our position, DOES end up on the cover of Al-Jazzera, DOES put a smile on Bin Laden's face, DOES give aid and comfort to an enemy who is otherwise losing, DOES arrouse anti-US sentiment, DOES demoralize our troops in the field, DOES get people killed (eg Newsweek induced riots), and DOES reduce our chance of winning, establishing democracy, and making the world a safer place.

I am so ashamed of some of these politicians, above and beyond any partisan differences, it makes me ill at times.
But as a private citizen it is fine to voice whatever objections to the war immediately and publicly and often. It is unlikely that Al-Jazerra will put you on the cover and if they do, no one will care.

1999 Amazon Green SVT Contour (#554/2760) "People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." -Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)