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Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by caltour:
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
the bad guys (and good guys) ARE listening to everything we say. I guess the real question is what DO we say. I do know we should not use terms like "quagmire" or "we are war criminals" or "prisoner abuse"..
Dan, are you saying that we should not allow open discussion of Bush's decision to invade Iraq? Are you saying we should not allow dissent re: the war in Iraq?
He's saying that the time for that is after the troops come home.
I respect your argument, but you are wrong about this.
It is our responsibility as citizens to voice our objections to the war immediately and publicly. It's our JOB to make it politically difficult for Bush to conduct the war. If we do not, we are allowing the Administration a free pass to wage war whenever it wants, no matter how ill-advised the war may be. Think about it: if we followed your advice, any president could start a war to enrich his corporate cronies, and avenge his daddy, or to boost his sagging popularity (or for any other reason that is not in our national interest), and he would get away with it completely, every time. All he would have to do is make sure the war continues until the end of his term, and he's home free.
Also, as a practical matter, we must dissent while the war is going on, because no one would pay any attention otherwise. Simple political fact: our opposition would hardly register at all if we sat quietly while this pointless carnage is going on, and then raised objections after the war was over. It's also a matter of credibility: if we remained silent, we would rightfully be accused of sandbagging. We would be accused of having "20/20 hindsight."
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
You're giving them the impression that they can divide the nation & erode support for the effort, & therefore they will continue to perform their evil deeds when they otherwise would quit. And yes, I am saying that if the nation were united in the effort (now that we are in fact there), the terrorists & their potential recruits would quickly see the futility of their methods.
It may be true that if none of us expressed any opposition to the war, that the jihadi nutjobs would pack up and go home sooner. But it is politically naive to think that such a thing could ever happen in the real world. There are ALWAYS dissidents. How could they be silenced? Would you ban street protests? Would you ban letters to the editor? Jihadi nutjobs can read the results of opinion surveys saying that most Americans now think the war was a mistake. Would you ban such polls?
Our right to protest and dissent and speak our minds is fundamental to democracy. If you ban dissent, you are destroying the essence of democracy: the right of individual citizens to influence decisionmakers and policymaking. If you ban dissent, in the hopes of demoralizing the insurgents, you are essentially giving up the very bedrock of our liberty. You are giving up the best thing we have, just to paper over Bush's huge mistake.
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
There will be the few hard-core retards, but recruiting would be near impossible without evidence of any effectiveness.
I agree. Most Americans now think that Bush's decision to invade Iraq was a mistake. Naturally, it's getting harder and harder for the military to convince potential recruits that Bush's war is worth dying for. Does that mean we dissenters are endangering the troops? Maybe it means that we dissenters will end up SAVING soldiers' (and future soldiers', and potential recruits') lives.
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Holy [censored], caltour? Did you finally show your TRUE heart here? Quote:
It's our JOB to make it politically difficult for Bush to conduct the war.
So if doing that puts our troops in more danger, then you're ok with that? If that gives the enemy (which we ALL agree is the enemy) more reason to hate us, is it still ok? If it furthers their cause, by making it seems like they are winning (you're side gives them more victories than they create themselves) is that ok?
E1
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Originally posted by EternalOne:
Holy [censored], caltour? Did you finally show your TRUE heart here?
Quote:
It's our JOB to make it politically difficult for Bush to conduct the war.
So if doing that puts our troops in more danger, then you're ok with that?
My point is that dissent against a bad war like this one will SAVE lives in the long run. It will make it politically more difficult for this president and future presidents to engage in ill-advised and unpopular wars. Preventing wars is what saves soliders from harm.
Originally posted by EternalOne:
If it furthers their cause, by making it seems like they are winning (you're side gives them more victories than they create themselves) is that ok?
Maybe some of them do take some encouragement from the fact that most Americans think the war was a mistake. I'll accept my share of the responsibility for that. It's a small price to pay for keeping our democracy intact, for keeping our Bill of Rights intact, and for saving young people from being sent to die in fiascos like this in the future.
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caltour..alot of good your(and other peoples) dissent and dissatisfaction is doing to persuade the gov't to end the war.. 
"Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but STUPID lasts forever."-Aristophanes.
--93 pgt,headers,intake,borla=14.9 1/4mile
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Originally posted by caltour:
My point is that dissent against a bad war like this one will SAVE lives in the long run. It will make it politically more difficult for this president and future presidents to engage in ill-advised and unpopular wars. Preventing wars is what saves soliders from harm.
Your only point is that you are an ignorant left wing nutcase who will never be happy with anything Bush has or will do. If he pulled out of Iraq tomorrow, you would still have something to [censored] about. Go back to your buddies at moveon.org and enjoy your circle jerk of Bush hating. You are wrong, there is NEVER a right time for Americans to call Americans terrorists, or torturers, etc.
You talk about a popular war, tell me, who the hell likes war?! It is a last resort, and thats how we used it. The UN had it's time to appease Saddam, now it's time for us to take action.
Quote:
Maybe some of them do take some encouragement from the fact that most Americans think the war was a mistake. I'll accept my share of the responsibility for that. It's a small price to pay for keeping our democracy intact, for keeping our Bill of Rights intact, and for saving young people from being sent to fiascos like this in the future.
Yeah, ask the soldiers that came back from Vietnam under a rain shower of spit and boo's how they feel about the people that thought that war was a mistake. The war in Iraq is FAR from a fiasco as you put it. Get a clue please, your ignorance is just spewing from every hole in your body, please find something to plug them up already.
Why don't you just buy the forsakethetroops.com site and start your own. Because when you and your ultra liberal counterparts spew this $hit about Gitmo being a torture house, the US abusing their religious book, Abu Grab being the equivilant of Nazi Germany, it gives our enemies power in propaganda. That is all terrorism is, a huge violant propaganda machine and the more people like you feed it, the more troops will die due to hardcore islam extremist suicide bombings. You take away their propaganda ammo as much as possible, not feed the fire.
"Moore has also accused the American people of being the stupidest, most naive people on the face of the Earth. And after last weekend, he's got the box office numbers to prove it!"
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Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
Originally posted by caltour:
My point is that dissent against a bad war like this one will SAVE lives in the long run. It will make it politically more difficult for this president and future presidents to engage in ill-advised and unpopular wars. Preventing wars is what saves soliders from harm.
Your only point is that you are an ignorant left wing nutcase who will never be happy with anything Bush has or will do. If he pulled out of Iraq tomorrow, you would still have something to [censored] about. Go back to your buddies at moveon.org and enjoy your circle jerk of Bush hating. You are wrong, there is NEVER a right time for Americans to call Americans terrorists, or torturers, etc.
You talk about a popular war, tell me, who the hell likes war?! It is a last resort, and thats how we used it. The UN had it's time to appease Saddam, now it's time for us to take action.
Quote:
Maybe some of them do take some encouragement from the fact that most Americans think the war was a mistake. I'll accept my share of the responsibility for that. It's a small price to pay for keeping our democracy intact, for keeping our Bill of Rights intact, and for saving young people from being sent to fiascos like this in the future.
Yeah, ask the soldiers that came back from Vietnam under a rain shower of spit and boo's how they feel about the people that thought that war was a mistake. The war in Iraq is FAR from a fiasco as you put it. Get a clue please, your ignorance is just spewing from every hole in your body, please find something to plug them up already.
Why don't you just buy the forsakethetroops.com site and start your own. Because when you and your ultra liberal counterparts spew this $hit about Gitmo being a torture house, the US abusing their religious book, Abu Grab being the equivilant of Nazi Germany, it gives our enemies power in propaganda. That is all terrorism is, a huge violant propaganda machine and the more people like you feed it, the more troops will die due to hardcore islam extremist suicide bombings. You take away their propaganda ammo as much as possible, not feed the fire.
............^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ prob. the most well written thing i've ever read on this site... 
"Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but STUPID lasts forever."-Aristophanes.
--93 pgt,headers,intake,borla=14.9 1/4mile
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Originally posted by tour96se:
caltour..alot of good your(and other peoples) dissent and dissatisfaction is doing to persuade the gov't to end the war..
^^^ This kind of thinking scares me, more than any insurgent or terrorist. Why? It says you believe there is really no point in opposing the war, because we ordinary people can't really influence the government. It says you think our little experiment with democracy is over, and it failed. It means the Overlords are in full control, and we ordinary people had better get over it. Sounds like a Bulgarian talking, not an American.
And you are wrong about we war critics trying to "persuade the government to end the war." Most of us think that would be a very bad idea. It might be in our short-term best interest to end the war before Iraq is secured and stable (save U.S. troop's lives, and lots of taxpayers' money), but in the long run it would leave Iraq open to domination by the jihadis nutjobs that we have attracted there. That would probably be worse (for everyone, Americans and Iraqis alike) than Saddam ever was.
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Originally posted by caltour:
Originally posted by tour96se:
caltour..alot of good your(and other peoples) dissent and dissatisfaction is doing to persuade the gov't to end the war..
^^^ This kind of thinking scares me, more than any insurgent or terrorist. Why? It says you believe there is really no point in opposing the war, because we ordinary people can't really influence the government. It says you think our little experiment with democracy is over, and it failed. It means the Overlords are in full control, and we ordinary people had better get over it. Sounds like a Bulgarian talking, not an American.
And you are wrong about we war critics trying to "persuade the government to end the war." Most of us think that would be a very bad idea. It might be in our short-term best interest to end the war before Iraq is secured and sable (save U.S. troop's lives, and lots of taxpayers' money), but in the long run it would leave Iraq open to domination by the jihadis nutjobs that we have attracted there. That would probably be worse (for everyone, Americans and Iraqis alike) than Saddam ever was.
.........thats fine...now we're even....its just hard for me to understand why people just cant accept certain things...i'm not saying we having to be cattle led around by our noses...but there ARE SOME THINGS that/wont be influenced by non gov't citizens... 
"Youth ages, immaturity is outgrown, ignorance can be educated, and drunkenness sobered, but STUPID lasts forever."-Aristophanes.
--93 pgt,headers,intake,borla=14.9 1/4mile
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Originally posted by caltour:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by caltour:
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
the bad guys (and good guys) ARE listening to everything we say. I guess the real question is what DO we say. I do know we should not use terms like "quagmire" or "we are war criminals" or "prisoner abuse"..
Dan, are you saying that we should not allow open discussion of Bush's decision to invade Iraq? Are you saying we should not allow dissent re: the war in Iraq?
He's saying that the time for that is after the troops come home.
I respect your argument, but you are wrong about this.
It is our responsibility as citizens to voice our objections to the war immediately and publicly. It's our JOB to make it politically difficult for Bush to conduct the war. If we do not, we are allowing the Administration a free pass to wage war whenever it wants, no matter how ill-advised the war may be. Think about it: if we followed your advice, any president could start a war to enrich his corporate cronies, and avenge his daddy, or to boost his sagging popularity (or for any other reason that is not in our national interest), and he would get away with it completely, every time. All he would have to do is make sure the war continues until the end of his term, and he's home free.
Also, as a practical matter, we must dissent while the war is going on lives.
Caltour my friend,
I think open discussion (citizen or senator) of how we got into the war is fine, in the PAST TENSE...it should occur with every war as we seek to dissect the events and what was done right and wrong. Heck, we are still debating the genesis of WWI and whether or not we allowed Pearl harbor to be sacked just to push the American people to war. I think ordinary citizens are within their rights to say nearly whatever they want (until they start inciting violence against Americans).
I think ELECTED representatives on the other hand MUST put on a poker face to the world in so far as the CURRENT situation and future outlook. "My fellow Americans, while I have GRAVE concerns about how we got into this war, it is clear we are doing the right thing now and further, we are kicking butt and will stay the course. I believe with my suggestions, that we can kick butt even harder".
I do believe in government transparency but there are some secrets that must be kept and some discussions should not occur in front of a microphone. They can and should say WHATEVER they feel behind closed doors, up to and including impeaching the president provided they do NOT, while troups are in harms way,jepordize the mission. And make no mistake..retoric that we have been hearing "quagmire", "failing war", "Vietnam", "we are war criminals", or "prisoner abuse/gulag" DOES hurt our position, DOES end up on the cover of Al-Jazzera, DOES put a smile on Bin Laden's face, DOES give aid and comfort to an enemy who is otherwise losing, DOES arrouse anti-US sentiment, DOES demoralize our troops in the field, DOES get people killed (eg Newsweek induced riots), and DOES reduce our chance of winning, establishing democracy, and making the world a safer place.
I am so ashamed of some of these politicians, above and beyond any partisan differences, it makes me ill at times.
But as a private citizen it is fine to voice whatever objections to the war immediately and publicly and often. It is unlikely that Al-Jazerra will put you on the cover and if they do, no one will care.
1999 Amazon Green SVT Contour (#554/2760)
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)
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Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
Originally posted by caltour:
My point is that dissent against a bad war like this one will SAVE lives in the long run. It will make it politically more difficult for this president and future presidents to engage in ill-advised and unpopular wars. Preventing wars is what saves soliders from harm.
Your only point is that you are an ignorant left wing nutcase
Why do Bush supporters (and Iraq war supporters) so frequently resort to name-calling? Hint: that's all they have left, since their opinion is not supported by facts.
Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
You are wrong, there is NEVER a right time for Americans to call Americans terrorists, or torturers, etc.
Exactly who are you arguing with? No one on this site, apparently. I have never seen anyone on this site saying our troops are terrorists or torturers. And I personally never said our troops are terrorists or torturers.
Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
You talk about a popular war, tell me, who the hell likes war?!
Only sociopaths like ALL wars, I guess. But that is a different issue than whether a particular war is popular with the general public.
World War II is commonly used by American historians as an example of a popular war. The vast, vast majority of Americans thought it was right, and supported it wholeheartedly. It's hard to think of many other examples of a popular war in modern times.
Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
It is a last resort, and thats how we used it.
Oh, god. We've covered this time and again.
Bush could have cooperated with the UN, and shared the burden of ousting Saddam with the rest of the free world, just like Clinton did in Kosovo, and his father did in Desert Storm.
I am amazed that you still make this "last resort" argument. Most Americans (and most of the rest of the world) don't believe it. They think we could have contained any threat posed by Saddam in a number of other ways. Bush's case for war is widely considered to be an almost complete sham.
Please read the old threads on this, and tell me how Bush had NO OTHER OPTION but war.
Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
Yeah, ask the soldiers that came back from Vietnam under a rain shower of spit and boo's how they feel about the people that thought that war was a mistake.
Of course it was stupid for those Vietnam war protesters to spit on the returning soldiers. But who is spitting on our troops today? Nobody. Even the most ferocious opponents of the Iraq war are careful to show full respect to our troops.
Focus: we're talking about what's the best national policy re: Iraq today. We are not talking about the actions of some dirty-ass stoned hippies 35 years ago.
Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
The war in Iraq is FAR from a fiasco as you put it.
Prove it. Show us exactly what sources and information you are relying on in making this claim.
Originally posted by 99blacksesport:
Get a clue please, your ignorance is just spewing from every hole in your body, please find something to plug them up already.
Nice. Very nice.
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