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But improperly done porting can hurt power. I know because I've done it. It was a wonderful waste of about 20 hours of labor as well as a destroyed set of heads. I got carried away with the valve pockets.


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Since the beginning you have taken my comment out of context.

You were talking about gasket matching "BY ITSELF" and nothing else. My statement was about it "by itself" and I most definitely stick by it because my statement is true. Common sense true to put it in your wording.

Now you come to the defense of it again by stating examples of full porting jobs of the heads and manifolds and stating the using of the gasket as a template can show gains. That is most definitely NOT gasket matching BY ITSELF now is it. It's also not a given on every engine. (but everyone does it and recommends it you claim???)
However it is not a "definite" proposition for the reasons I gave in my last post. You remember, the ones you just stated were "common sense" yet you argued against in your first response to me. (which is it by the way???)

Then you chime in with "Rough castings often restrict flow, and cause excessive amounts of pressure and resistance." That's like the "well duh" of statements. I even referred to it using the stock vs SVT statement. The SVT UIM uses the Extrude Hone process which does exactly what you just explained to me. (SVT heads as well for that matter)

However. You seem to state it like in order to "remove the rough castings" you have to hog out the ports. That is not true at all. You can smooth out the ports and only take a small amount of material out. You do not have to open them up to match larger gaskets. You do not have to oversize them and lose velocity.
Which brings up velocity & cylinder filling. Those are far more important then changing to port size to just match a gasket. Like I stated before there are more important factors then maximum flow ability. Runner length, port volume, port velocity, swirl effect, cylinder filling ability, et cetera. I'm not saying maximum cfm ability is not important but exceeding the needs of the engine is gaining you nothing and almost always hurts other areas.

I will end with the following.

Why tell someone to do something you have no idea how to work on. Your advice was completely incorrect on this subject. Your using general knowledge and stating it will work because "Every serious engine builder IN HISTORY does " still does NOT make it correct.

My first response was against using gasket matching on our platform and just blindly using gasket matching by itself on any engine. Both statements are very correct and I stand behind them.


For what I have seen in your posts. You may have some good books and obviously have some good experience but by arguing for just one small part you don't seem to fully understand the whole picture of why things work the way they do. Take that however you want as it's just my opinion. I have plenty of them. When it comes to automotive related knowledge I believe my way of thinking shows well for itself in the cars I have built. Other opinions may not. They're not my opinions.


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Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Originally posted by BigC:
WRONG!
Every serious engine builder IN HISTORY has stood by gasket matching in relation to engine porting.

Perhaps the UIM on a Contour should not be ported, but to say that "gasket-matching on an engine is a joke" is completely IGNORANT.



It is plainly obvious you have no idea about any of the measurements of the parts you are talking about.




Right there I explained that the Contour's UIM should not necessarily be ported. You're right about that. It is very apparent that you know more about the Duratec platform than I do. I have yet to do any serious engine modifications to the Duratec, and that is why my argument in relation to it ended.

However, I will continue to argue for the idea of gasket-matching in relation to porting. When two mating ports are opened to the size of the gasket, the flow is increased, and if the the gasket is from a good company (i.e. Felpro...) then you can be assured that the port can never be the wrong size, because the gaskets will always be the same. Besides- this increases the duration of use of said gaskets.

I have never encountered a situation where this method has led to a loss of power; at times, it has happened that there was no change, but never have I encountered a loss of power.
Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Enlarging it to match the gasket when it alters the design & flow of the port is bad and will always be bad.



This statement would be true only if stock ports were perfect. Often, the design and flow MUST be altered to increase flow to a level that ONLY allows the engine to breathe as it was intended. How can it be bad if it increases power?

The few instances which you've pointed out as being bad subjects of this method are EASILY negated by the thousands of helpful and successful instances that can be observed in just about any "Engine Building" publication, car magazine, or even on automotive programs on TV.

Perhaps we should agree to disagree.


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just out of curiosity, what is extrude honed porting? I know the svts have it and I don't. very sad.


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Originally posted by BigC:
and if the the gasket is from a good company (i.e. Felpro...) then you can be assured that the port can never be the wrong size, because the gaskets will always be the same. Besides- this increases the duration of use of said gaskets.





This is a dangerous assumption. Often intake gaskets have way too much void space. Perhaps in cases where the additional material removed would be too much to work well, new gaskets should be made before attempting to match the ports to the gaskets.


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Fine putty-like material forced through the intake (with a rough nature, like putty sandpaper..) and effectively sands the inside of the manifold in a manner that would be impossible to do with normal tools, due to shape, and distance of passages. Also ensures a uniform pass, as the material is pressurized through there.

Increases size (slightly), smoothness and uniformity.

Ray


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Originally posted by elraido:
just out of curiosity, what is extrude honed porting? I know the svts have it and I don't. very sad.




There is a company strangely enough known as "Extrude Hone" that does this process. As far as I know the Contour SVT is the first and only production car to use the process. It is usually done by hot rodders.

Basically an abrasive putty like material is forced through the ports. The putty both polishes the port and removes some metal, making the port larger in diameter as well as smoother. The material used as well as the pressure used and the number of times the process is done determine the finished product.

This is an expensive process, and thus the reason that it was only done for the SVT.

IIRC, the SVT engineers said that the process was worth about 10 hp for the 98 and an additional 5 (15 total) for the 99 and 00.


Jim Johnson 98 SVT 03 Escape Limited
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Maybe you two should just whip it out and measure it so you can get your crap of back and forth, need to have the last laugh, non sense out of the way...

So anyway..

So from what I understand the UIM should not be enlarged what so ever? Then why is the SVT manifold larger then a non-svt manifold? or am I wrong on this? Also have you ever looked at a non-svt manifold? The holes are not very uniform at the exit. I wanted to smooth these exits out and at the same time enlarge them slightly (better air flow IMO).

I think someone got carried away...I have a non-SVT duratec and can't find/afford the SVT UIM/LIM. So for 10 bucks + a gasket I wanted to optimize a manifold. Or is this still wrong and can someone actually post a reply to me and not bark back and forth??? (and your both right in your own ways, you're just not on the same field so back off and go sit in some time out seats, jesus chirstmas)

Thanks


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#1302608 06/14/05 03:22 AM
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I certainly hope you were replying to someone else, and not me. (you replied to my post, so I can only assume, though I think its Demon and BigC you are referring to.

FWIW: I'd just let them talk about it. You want someone to answer you and only you, and NOT debate reasons why you shouldn't or should do it? I can give you a concise, straightforward answer directed only to you if that is what you feel you have to have..

don't not go out and don't do it unless you don't want to not ruin it.

That is as fickle as I can be in a concise manner. (Psst.. I think you would rather APPRECIATE having two rather established, and obviously educated members debating YOUR question on YOUR behalf, FOR you. Better information to be had all around.


Ray


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Originally posted by Kremitthefrog:
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#1302609 06/14/05 03:27 AM
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Yes Ray I was refering to BigC and Demon. It seems to turned more into whether gasket matching is good or not post. I wanted to try to redirect it to my question before it wonders off and becomes a flame war. Sometimes I'm just to straight forward with what I think.

oh nice use of double negatives, you made me have to read that three times...


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