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Originally posted by Davo:
Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
They would inept to let the union fall apart.
They're not wasting any time though... link
It is indeed a step back but I do not think this will lead to the end.
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At least you think it will work out, Sean. Dutch reject EU Constitution
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Sean, not all conservatives think that all liberals are worse than Hitler. The problem is that they seem to think Hitler 'just didn't do it right' and that they can do better. This is dangerously oblivious.
The most basic and important fundemental difference I have found between your philospohy and mine is that the typical liberal has no undertanding of either reality or historical precedent. In other words, liberals believe they can change the world for the better using the same methods that have been proven dangerously wrong before.
To believe that you can do the same exact things that have been done before and get different results time after time is one definition of insanity.
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Originally posted by 99SEinLivonia:
Sean, not all conservatives think that all liberals are worse than Hitler. The problem is that they seem to think Hitler 'just didn't do it right' and that they can do better. This is dangerously oblivious.
The most basic and important fundemental difference I have found between your philospohy and mine is that the typical liberal has no undertanding of either reality or historical precedent. In other words, liberals believe they can change the world for the better using the same methods that have been proven dangerously wrong before.
To believe that you can do the same exact things that have been done before and get different results time after time is one definition of insanity.
Well I believe we live in a different world that we used to and we need new methods. I do not believe throwing money at a problem is the solution (the No Security without Development, no Development without Security argument that I was pushing, taken from Common Foreign Security Policy head Javier Solana) but I do not believe they would just throw money at something. One must remember that Euros have had much to much war and they are kind of done with it. Indeed, I spoke with an Austrian tonight who tried to tell me that the US went to Iraq to get Oil, clear spurious reasoning. I believe we live in a different world and in spite of this the Bush admin has not look at the lessons learned in Vietnam. The lessons learned there were to have an exit strategy, Vietnam told us that there would be people resisting us and the admin didn't plan for this and many other things. Iraq was an issue but the way we handled things was done in the wrong manner. (Keep in mind currently Iraq is the issue with regard to the Euro-Ami split) Even with Afghanistan Euros had a problem with out handling of prisoners and our HR violations. Sure we are in a time of "war" (which will seeming never end, Terrorism is a method of getting heard or fighting, there is no ending people trying to do this) but everyone really has a right to a trial.
I am not forgetting the past but it seems that admin is forgetting the past ('Nam) but they are also failing to see that this is a different world that the US cannot simply invade or use force with to get what it wants. The problem is the Euros envision a world where they have an equal mouthpiece to the world that the US does and the US sees a world where it remains the sole super-power. This clashes with the Euro liberal ideal, plus with the fact that they are not as powerful as us  I am no longer trying to give a solution, I am trying to understand the problem. It is indeed so complex that I felt it would be healthy to live here. Davo thinks it is toxic but if it is how could I really understand the rift that has grown between Europeans (or even the rest of the world) and the US. Sorry for the slight rant/explanation but I am a bit drunk.
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Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
The problem is the Euros envision a world where they have an equal mouthpiece to the world that the US does
well we all have our fantasies but wanting it doesn't make it so.
Originally posted by Wien-Sean:
and the US sees a world where it remains the sole super-power.
because we are. i admit there are a couple of other boys on the block who are pretty tough but when it comes to a super power we are it, alone.
Originally posted by Wien-Sean:
This clashes with the Euro liberal ideal, plus with the fact that they are not as powerful as us
as my dear departed grandma used to say "tough cookies." if they don't like being weaker and wrong then they can just earn to be stronger and right. oh wait, i forgot this is liberalism we are talking about here. rather than having the euros learn to be stong and correct we need to be weaker and wrong just so they may feel better about themselves.
00 black/tan svt, #2052 of 2150, born 2/1/00
formerly known as my csvt
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." -Martin Luther King, Jr.
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"...Bush admin has not look at the lessons learned in Vietnam. The lessons learned there were to have an exit strategy..."
"...Keep in mind currently Iraq is the issue with regard to the Euro-Ami split..."
Two thoughts...
1)The 'exit strategy' is important but the most important thing is that if a nation must go to war, it must be with all the manpower it can muster. To plan to go piece-meal is to plan for failure.
2)The split with european nations - specifically France and Germany (Russia too) - was caused by thier refusal to stand united in the U(selessly)N(arcisistic) security(?) council.
The vetoes of these countries was bought by the former Iraqi government with proceeds from the oil-for-food program.
They were BOUGHT, man! Your euro-liberal friends sold their votes, and the sick part is that this is normal for euro-politics! Just watch what happens to their 'union' over the next months, I will.
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what union? france and holland are already out. i have no idea why i find this so funny.
00 black/tan svt, #2052 of 2150, born 2/1/00
formerly known as my csvt
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." -Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Originally posted by 99SEinLivonia:
1)The 'exit strategy' is important but the most important thing is that if a nation must go to war, it must be with all the manpower it can muster. To plan to go piece-meal is to plan for failure.
I'm not sure if I understand your position... are you saying the US did go to war in Iraq with all the manpower it could muster?
E0 #36
'95 Ranger
'82 Honda CX500
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Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
...
In other words, Europeans want a world where they will again have at least an equal share of world power (why else would they all want to band together). The best way to achieve it is through this 'nouveau' means of international relations. I don't know about the rest of the people here, but the Europeans are about the last people I'd take international relation advice from.
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Neither in Afganistan nor in Iraq (the second time) did we go to fight with everything we had this time. It wasn't nearly as bad as Vietnam (with it's slowly ramping-up troop deployment) but it certainly wasn't as efficient as Desert-Storm 1 - which I took to mean that our military had learned the important lessons from Vietnam.
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