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Originally posted by Davo:
Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
I just wrote a paper on this very topic. What the Europeans have decided to do is take a different approach to Diplomacy and relations. The US is still operating on a multi-lateral, Diplomacy Ale-Carte while Europeans are for a system like the EU which, for one, makes it easier for terrorists to be caught because there is a unified front against terrorist activities rather than a hodgepodge of resistance. The US is also still using Militarism as its power, which is understandable since it still have the most powerful military in the world; if you have it why not use seems to be the common ideology in the administration. The EU has a greater population yet can only muster about 60k troops, which is I believe 25% of their total forces, while the US can mobilize hundreds of thousands which is 60% of the total force. I don't remember the exact numbers but in any case it shows a clear cleavage between Euro and American military power. Therefore the Europeans have decided to also go with a "No Development without Security, No Security without Development" which basically goes at the root and tries to support unions like the African Union to developed in many ways such as aide for food, better training for security forces, and many more forms of aide. What it comes down to is many in the US believe either that the Cold War system is still valid, or that it is fading and the US must do whatever it can to affect change and grasp power. The EU among others believes that the Cold War system is over, it has been for 15 years, and are ready for a new system of relations which does not start with militarism and military deterrence which was the hallmark of the Cold War.
So what you're saying is that the EU is resorting to 1930s style peace-making? By 'Cold War system' do you mean military might? A system of militarism and military deterrence isn't just the hallmark of the Cold War, it's a hallmark of civilization. You tell me of a time when suits solved serious international disputes and I'll tell you you're reading the wrong history books. The Europeans are incredibly naive if they think what you described is going to be a successful brand of international relations.
This is not 1930's style Diplomacy, this is the emergence of a new order. They are trying to go after the sources of terrorism rather than use total military might. The problem is, unlike the 1930 what we are fighting cannot be nailed down to individual states. We can no longer blame terrorism and terrorist activities on single states. Unlike pervious threats to the US, and moreover freedom and liberty in general, this one does not have a single face like the Nazis or the USSR did. The EU is working on a system of cooperation with governments, you think it's the appeasement of Chamberlain, I think it is the only way forward. How do you use military deterrence against a country like N. Korea that is clearly not deterred by the US and could not care less about what the rest of the world think? Do you think we should invade a country like N. Korea? How do you deal with threats in a new system with old methods that seem heavy handed at best when dealing with these threats? You cannot simply say "this is how all of civilization dealt with it, therefore it must be right", sure there is a place for military might but it should not be what leads our diplomacy.
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Originally posted by JVT:
I give the EU 15-20 years before it falls apart.
No way the Germans, French, Italians and former Soviet countries will get along in "union". No way.
Hell, I wish we (Czech) would have stayed the fugg out.
-J
The EU has been coming together since the early 1950's. It will last, haven't you seen what has happened in French-German relations in the past 2 years? The EU has an great amount of economic power and that means they have a great amount of "soft" power. They would inept to let the union fall apart.
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Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
This is not 1930's style Diplomacy, this is the emergence of a new order. They are trying to go after the sources of terrorism rather than use total military might. The problem is, unlike the 1930 what we are fighting cannot be nailed down to individual states. We can no longer blame terrorism and terrorist activities on single states. Unlike pervious threats to the US, and moreover freedom and liberty in general, this one does not have a single face like the Nazis or the USSR did. The EU is working on a system of cooperation with governments, you think it's the appeasement of Chamberlain, I think it is the only way forward.
Good luck with that.
Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
How do you use military deterrence against a country like N. Korea that is clearly not deterred by the US and could not care less about what the rest of the world think? Do you think we should invade a country like N. Korea? How do you deal with threats in a new system with old methods that seem heavy handed at best when dealing with these threats? You cannot simply say "this is how all of civilization dealt with it, therefore it must be right", sure there is a place for military might but it should not be what leads our diplomacy.
North Korea is quite the bear. I do hope and believe that situation (created by Bill Clinton and Madeline Albright) can be solved without the use of force. But that doesn't mean we should eliminate force from our list of options, which is what you're suggesting.
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Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
The EU has been coming together since the early 1950's. It will last, haven't you seen what has happened in French-German relations in the past 2 years?
They can just as easily piss each other off. Look at the German-Italian relations of the past couple of years. Not exactly a harmony.
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The EU has an great amount of economic power and that means they have a great amount of "soft" power.
The only true economic powers are Germany, France, and Italy. And as far their economies go, well, put it this way, our recession was cake compared to what is going on there. Italy has high debt and a flat, nearly contracting economy, Germany has highest paid workers in the world that work 32hrs a week w/ full benefits. Even their efficiency isn't going to make up for the extreme high cost of labor, similar case going on in France.
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They would inept to let the union fall apart.
You're a smart guy, don't be gullible.
I will say this again though, do not, ever, underestimate the Russians...
-J
'98 4Runner
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I never said military force should not be an option, I just do not believe that it should be what lead our relations.
JVT, it seems that you and many people have the same view of the EU and you do of the UN. I believe the EU is and can be more organized and accomplish more than the UN ever could. Yes it is true that only a few countries in the EU are pulling their weight but it is still early in the game, to early IMO to say it won't last. I am hopeful that it will last. One good thing to come out of it was an act that all EU nations have the same stance on terrorist and therefore there are no boundaries to stop extradition. Like I said before, they are presenting a unified front against terrorist.
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Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
One good thing to come out of it was an act that all EU nations have the same stance on terrorist and therefore there are no boundaries to stop extradition. Like I said before, they are presenting a unified front against terrorist.
we'll see about that. we all know how honorable some of those countries *cough france cough* can be.
00 black/tan svt, #2052 of 2150, born 2/1/00
formerly known as my csvt
"Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity." -Martin Luther King, Jr.
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Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
I never said military force should not be an option, I just do not believe that it should be what lead our relations.
Are you saying that our foreign policy is absent of an attempt at diplomacy?
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Originally posted by Davo:
Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
I never said military force should not be an option, I just do not believe that it should be what lead our relations.
Are you saying that our foreign policy is absent of an attempt at diplomacy?
Sometimes, in a way yes. I do not believe we always use every method of Diplomacy in our foreign policy. Sometimes force is needed, but there are many forms of force, military is a last resort in the world we live in; at least it should IMO.
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Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
Sometimes, in a way yes. I do not believe we always use every method of Diplomacy in our foreign policy. Sometimes force is needed, but there are many forms of force, military is a last resort in the world we live in; at least it should IMO.
Sometimes. In a way. 
I'm not sure which methods are included in 'every method'. Are you referring to some peoples' ability to invent means of diplomacy (like they did with Iraq, in saying we needed to wait another decade for the inspectors to remain locked out before we use force) and then complain that we didn't exhaust all roads of diplomacy?
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Wow, this thread has gone waaaaayyyy off topic.
- Tim
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