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Originally posted by JaTo:
it's simply a matter of commonly-held belief structures in creating order, peace and control that EVERY religion or political structure usually holds themselves to.
Agreed, which is IMO how the majority of our Founding Fathers considered religion. The few that specifically mentioned the teachings of Jesus Christ usually focused on his morality lessons, not the miracles. FWIW other religions also have the same view of Jesus.
The only reason I brought this aspect up is because saying "our Founding documents were founded on Christian principles" implies that our Founding Fathers were devout Christians who accepted the word of the Christian Church. From what you've posted I believe you don't agree with this, nor should anyone who's read these documents.
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Originally posted by spgoode:
So your post confirms that the bible is a collection of contradictory information that no person could or should actually follow for guidance.
Life is a study in contradiction; for one that professes knowlege, I would expect you to be aware of this. The greatest contradiction is that the more studies and learned one becomes, invariably the more questions one usually ends up with...
But, I would rather say that the unstudied must be careful in jumping to conclusions on any religious text, especially if they insist on letting 4-5 words or a particular passage blind them to thousands of pages of a rather cohesive message.
One must study the religious message itself, the time it was written in and the social norms and the political strucures that historically existed then. The Bible, as with other religous texts, is a guide and tool (from a secular point of view) that was meant to help one find meaning and discipline in life. As with all tools, it can be misused and has been in the past and most assuredly will in the future. When compared with the social norms of today, there are some passsages and concepts within The Bible that certainly don't line up with common belief or thought (slavery being one of them).
Is this a function of religious belief, though, or a social norm that was prevalent at the time of it's writing? Does the institution of slavery collapse the ENTIRE message of Christianity? Only if you are a fool...
The Bible is a multi-layered, multi-authored document that touches on an almost endless number of social, religious and political thoughts. Some of it is history, some of it is poetry, some of it is theological discourse and much of it is a profound tale of love, faith and devotion to a higher cause than one's own self. Much of it's message is one of hope, peace, respect and love, though man's interpretations over small pieces of it at times has proven bloody and downright shameful.
Few documents in existance discuss or represent the human condition in such beauty as The Bible; I find it immensely disturbing and patently ignorant if one can't get past their hangups on religion and discern this. You can disagree with the theology all you want; it still doesn't detract from most of the core messages at the heart of the document.
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Originally posted by JaTo:
Originally posted by Viss1:
Also, are the writings of the ancient Greek and Roman philosophers, as well as those of the Elightenment, incompatible with these principles, or might they also have been a source of reference for our Founding Fathers?
Ah! Now you are getting into the fun discussion. Absolutely, there are many moral and legal decrees in Roman and Greek society that are mirrored in Christian discourse. I don't see this as a smear on Christianity or something that dilutes it's importance; it's simply a matter of commonly-held belief structures in creating order, peace and control that EVERY religion or political structure usually holds themselves to. Find me a widely-held, long-lasting and popular religion or government that holds anarchy, law-breaking and immoral activities as the norm...
Jato, greek and roman philosophy isn't mirrored in the Bible, but rather, reflected by Man who has adopted and adapted philosophy with their Biblical teachings.
Just look at the Pope and his structure. We know and seem to expect that each Pope comes along with a different attitude or moral standard, as some have mentioned here and acknowledge.
In other words, every Pope has his own philosophy of how to guide the church. Yes, he is backed with Biblical principles, but as I mentioned, is "mixed" with His own ideas.
LIkewise, as the New Encyclopaedia Brit. puts it, Philosophy is " â??a reflection upon the varieties of human experienceâ?? or as â??the rational, methodical, and systematic consideration of those topics that are of greatest concern to man."
Christianity is based on Divine revelation so should have no bearing on the "varieties of human experience", And it's interests should be that of God and not those "of greatest concern to man."
It dawned on me why there is so much talk about your founding fathers. That's when science was infallible and gave cold hard "facts" to the people which gave a critical eye to religion. Deism started then too because mainstream religion couldn't cope with the new changes from the Inductrial Revolution. So now the people didn't want to support the ecclesiastical religions but perhaps didn't prefer the pseudo-religions (human-based or philosophied teachings) which brought as the World Christian Encyclopedia refers to as â??secularism, scientific materialism, atheistic communism, nationalism, nazism, fascism, Maoism, liberal humanism and numerous constructed or fabricated pseudo-religions.â? So Deism was a compromise. Hence the lack of God mentioned in your constitution. Being that Deism was new and hip, they probabaly didn't have a tough time dissueding the devout christian leaders to be conservative in their reference to God.
I think I understand some of this thread. 
EDIT
Originally posted by JaTo:
Few documents in existance discuss or represent the human condition in such beauty as The Bible; I find it immensely disturbing and patently ignorant if one can't get past their hangups on religion and discern this. You can disagree with the theology all you want; it still doesn't detract from most of the core messages at the heart of the document.
It's hard, you agree to get past that for the same reason people can't forgive priests who molested children, in that the church has murdered, pillaged, warred, and almost commit every wrong in the "name of God". So unfortunatly, many turn to their own religion, in the comfort of their own home, to serve God. It's hard for the same open-minded person you talk about, to find a group who serves God without hypocrisy
Last edited by Cris'pus; 04/21/05 05:18 PM.
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Originally posted by Viss1:
Originally posted by JaTo:
it's simply a matter of commonly-held belief structures in creating order, peace and control that EVERY religion or political structure usually holds themselves to.
Agreed, which is IMO how the majority of our Founding Fathers considered religion. The few that specifically mentioned the teachings of Jesus Christ usually focused on his morality lessons, not the miracles. FWIW other religions also have the same view of Jesus.
The only reason I brought this aspect up is because saying "our Founding documents were founded on Christian principles" implies that our Founding Fathers were devout Christians who accepted the word of the Christian Church. From what you've posted I believe you don't agree with this, nor should anyone who's read these documents.
I disagree that it implies that they were devout; I would agree that it does imply that the majority were brought up in a Christian environment that shaped and molded their thoughts and beliefs, which resonated in the way they governed, passed laws, debated and ultimately lived. I can't comment on the individual "devoutness" of each impactful leader that railed against the British Crown back then; I can comment on the environment they grew up in and lived in, though, as it's been thorougly documented in the annuals of history. That environment was one that was absolutely FULL of Christian principles and given this, the inclusion of the concepts of "God" were NOT a mistake, nor were the exclusions of it in some documents.
I don't believe that the mere mention of "God" in US political documents establishes a irrevocable mandate for Christians in the US, nor does the absence of it in the US Constitution affirm to all the card-carrying ACLU folks that the founders of this country meant for the Christian religion and it's many principles be excluded and wiped out from any and every civic mention due to the PC-weenies chanting their recently-found mantra.
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Originally posted by JaTo:
I would agree that it does imply that the majority were brought up in a Christian environment that shaped and molded their thoughts and beliefs, which resonated in the way they governed, passed laws, debated and ultimately lived. I can't comment on the individual "devoutness" of each impactful leader that railed against the British Crown back then; I can comment on the environment they grew up in and lived in, though, as it's been thorougly documented in the annuals of history. That environment was one that was absolutely FULL of Christian principles and given this, the inclusion of the concepts of "God" were NOT a mistake, nor were the exclusions of it in some documents.
We're on the same page, but I just have a couple of comments on this:
- Most of the "big name" FF's questioned religion, including the Christian religion under which they were raised. This was out of step with the devout culture of the day. Their writings and biographies/autobiographies make their opinions of religion relatively clear.
- The inclusion of "God" is not the same as the inclusion of "Jesus Christ." I agree that it is likely that the moral teachings of Jesus were on the minds of the FF's when they wrote the documents, but so were the teachings of other religious figures and secular thinkers.
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Originally posted by Cris'pus:
...It's hard for the same open-minded person you talk about, to find a group who serves God without hypocrisy.
Find me any religion that has 2 millenia of history behind it in it's various iterations that is without some degree of hypocrisy or bad blood in places.
You can't, because it doesn't exist.
Just because a certain religion pushes for a particular concept of "perfection" doesn't mean that man's interpretation and execution of it will EVER be perfect.
In today's "instant gratification" society (especially here in the US), the concept of struggling and staying on a difficult path with any measured degree is quite the alien one. The problem is that many people have one or two hiccups with religion, or someone professing to be a purveyor of religion and they just give up when the going gets complicated or difficult. To some, faith is a disposable diaper; once it's dirtied, you toss it out, never to be used or considered again. To others, it's much more resilient and pliable.
Finally, The Bible does hold reference to habits, ideas and concepts that were in place LONG before Christianity; a good deal of these can be found within other religions that pre-date the foundation of it. Some of which are even social in nature rather than religious. I don't have the time to put forth examples now, but I'll certainly dig up a few. Some can even be found in the side-notes of the Bible in the NIV version.
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I just have this to say:
Man, that guy is old.
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Originally posted by JaTo:
Find me any religion that has 2 millenia of history behind it in it's various iterations that is without some degree of hypocrisy or bad blood in places.
I knew that word would throw you in a loop. Lemme think of a better way to put it...It's hard for any open-minded person to find a group that is separate from the world (John 15:19), loves one another regardless of country or race (John 13:35), and teaches using God's book and not Man's Ideas(Mark 7:7)
Quote:
Finally, The Bible does hold reference to habits, ideas and concepts that were in place LONG before Christianity; a good deal of these can be found within other religions that pre-date the foundation of it. Some of which are even social in nature rather than religious. I don't have the time to put forth examples now, but I'll certainly dig up a few. Some can even be found in the side-notes of the Bible in the NIV version.
Now I am not sure what you're trying to get at but all I can say is that before Christianity was Judaism, governed by the same God of the 1st century and now and hence the hebrew scriptures refer to many habits, ideas and concepts that were to the benefit of the people of that time period (And some beneficial to us today) and carried on to the 1st century.
Sure, other nations had good habits, ideas and concepts but those didn't follow what God commanded (Ammonites, Moabites, Edomites, Philistines, Phoenicians, and Syrians) and some of them were branched off families of the Isrealites so naturally would have some of the ideals and habits.
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