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Originally posted by Pope Dnewma IV:
This has been a pretty informative thread, thanks for the opinions on both sides.
About the copying thing, I just keeping thinking to myself that all i read is about packaging issues and how little room there is. Seems to me that this would really limit the amount of ways the headers can be designed. I would rather have a good design than have have WR [censored] things up with a piss poor design just to be original. Seems counter-intuitive to me.
They could actually have made a great design by doing a little research on the SHM headers, and taking a shot at copying those. Since SHM gave up on their headers, WR would have gotten the equivalent of a free pass, most of the R&D done for them. Just a little effort & 0 controversy. But no, they had to take the super easy route, beg for a set of MSDS from some enthusiast board, and make direct knock-offs. I have no respect for a company like that.
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Joined: Sep 2000
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I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty
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I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,789 |
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by Pope Dnewma IV:
This has been a pretty informative thread, thanks for the opinions on both sides.
About the copying thing, I just keeping thinking to myself that all i read is about packaging issues and how little room there is. Seems to me that this would really limit the amount of ways the headers can be designed. I would rather have a good design than have have WR [censored] things up with a piss poor design just to be original. Seems counter-intuitive to me.
They could actually have made a great design by doing a little research on the SHM headers, and taking a shot at copying those. Since SHM gave up on their headers, WR would have gotten the equivalent of a free pass, most of the R&D done for them. Just a little effort & 0 controversy. But no, they had to take the super easy route, beg for a set of MSDS from some enthusiast board, and make direct knock-offs. I have no respect for a company like that.
Why did SHM give up on headers? If I am going to copy one or another, I suppose I would be looking at copying the more successful model. In either case, you are still copying, where do you draw the ethical line? Copying is great, as long you copy from a defunct product line? Seems like splitting hairs. Don't worry, I take the same stands with some products, as well. I understand where you are coming from with your argument. It's essentially the same reason I don't buy products from DEI.
"If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit"
-Mitch Hedberg
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Joined: Mar 2003
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Hard-core CEG'er
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Originally posted by Pope Dnewma IV:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Originally posted by Pope Dnewma IV:
This has been a pretty informative thread, thanks for the opinions on both sides.
About the copying thing, I just keeping thinking to myself that all i read is about packaging issues and how little room there is. Seems to me that this would really limit the amount of ways the headers can be designed. I would rather have a good design than have have WR [censored] things up with a piss poor design just to be original. Seems counter-intuitive to me.
They could actually have made a great design by doing a little research on the SHM headers, and taking a shot at copying those. Since SHM gave up on their headers, WR would have gotten the equivalent of a free pass, most of the R&D done for them. Just a little effort & 0 controversy. But no, they had to take the super easy route, beg for a set of MSDS from some enthusiast board, and make direct knock-offs. I have no respect for a company like that.
Why did SHM give up on headers? If I am going to copy one or another, I suppose I would be looking at copying the more successful model. In either case, you are still copying, where do you draw the ethical line? Copying is great, as long you copy from a defunct product line? Seems like splitting hairs. Don't worry, I take the same stands with some products, as well. I understand where you are coming from with your argument. It's essentially the same reason I don't buy products from DEI.
It is one thing to copy a design that is no longer being offered - it's not a viable choice for anybody that may want to purchase. I welcome WR in a case like this - it give us choices & nobody is being hurt.
MSDS is a going concern & their design was still available for purchase. WR doing their thing has a direct impact on the people that did the work to come up with that design - I have a huge problem with that. Maybe what WR has done is legal. Maybe MSDS didn't patent their design, maybe they didn't specify all materials in their patent, so WR could legally copy the design & use different materials - whatever. I still see it as shady at best, & criminal in the worst case.
SHM was before my time, but from what I gather they were long tube headers. SHM, or whoever, was charging $1250 for the set. Then along came Marty with the MSDS shorty set for half the cost. I would expect SHM was getting few sales at that price & when MSDS came along, they were the death knell as you might imagine. Could be that SHM has a better process for protecting their intellectual property & WR couldn't copy without paying royalties - who knows...
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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I would guess that it was a case of not being able to get their hands on a set of SHM headers. Either that, or they just didn't know about them.
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Originally posted by Jason43:
I would guess that it was a case of not being able to get their hands on a set of SHM headers. Either that, or they just didn't know about them.
Where's the WR R&D guy when you need him...
If they didn't know about SHM making $1250 headers, that's not much of an R&D department. WR shoulda been licking their lips & scrambling to get into that market. They could have easily designed some similar units just based on pictures that were available. Additionally, I'm sure lotsa guys here were screaming at WR for long tube headers when they came 'round looking for volunteers to send in the shorties for copying.
Does anybody recall? I'd like to get the viewpoint of somebody that actually witnessed all of that mess.
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Where's the WR R&D guy when you need him...
That's one of those oxymorons right... 
They did not even want to spring the $600 to buy a set of MSDS header to copy. They got an owner to send them their own set and then cut his up. 
Personally I couldn't see sending them my $600 set of headers but my $1250+ set of headers... Riiiiiiight...
2000 SVT #674
13.47 @ 102 - All Motor!
It was not broke; Yet I fixed it anyway.
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Originally posted by DemonSVT:
Originally posted by TourDeForce:
Where's the WR R&D guy when you need him...
That's one of those oxymorons right...
 Considering the methods, yes, it would be, wouldn't it!
Of course, you know that's exactly my point.
Demon, knowing that SHM is not making the long tube headers any more, if you could get a set of SHM knock-off headers from WR for say... $600, same price as MSDS, would you buy 'em? Even if a trusted member like Stazi offered pix & a statement about their construction?
I would.
Must be that jumbly-wumbly thing happening again.
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Just to throw another opinion out there...
I recieved the set of WR headers I ordered from CC today(only took 2 days to get here). I have to agree with everything Stazi has said about them. They are in no way cheap or flimsy. There is no way anyone short of a professioinal body builder is going to bend the headers or y-pipe by hand.
The welds are a little slopy, but not bad. They do however seem to be solid and look to have good penetration. The y-pipe bend looks better than any MSDS pipe I've seen pictured on here.
I matched up a set of 3.0 manifold gaskets I had sitting around and they fit perfectly. It doesnt look like they would need to be touched up at all prior to installation.
On top of everything, the set I recieved was polished to boot  .
I haven't installed them yet, so I can't comment on fitment. Other than the EGR, I don't expect to have any other problems. I'm not going to wrap them, but do plan on fabbing some kind of heatshield similar to whats on the stock manifolds. That should hopefully take care of any concerns about SS possibly letting off more heat than coated steel, while also addressing the the concerns that SS could crack if wrapped.
This may change once I try to install them, but overall, I have absolutely nothing to complain about with these.
I'm also not trying to start any flame wars with the MSDS faithfull, I'm just giving my opinion after actually having these in my possession. 
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Can anyone give me some details on the EGR issue? I am ordering headers really soon and if these will go in without major problems I will probably go with those.
-tropictour
2000 Contour SVT
Tropic Green
SHO Shop CAI
Bassani
1999 Contour SE
BAT Kit
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I'll post pics of the EGR pipe adaptation when I do it, mind you it will be for a oval port 3L withplastic UIM. Nonetheless the approach I will take can be done with the regular Contout UM and EGr pipe.
2000 SVT Turbo 295hp/269ftlb@12psi
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Knuckles rebuilt w/new bearings $55
AUSSIE ENDLINKS $70
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A lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine!
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