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<Warning: Absolute lack of science in this post. Based on faith only.>
Ok...so I've been thinking about this. Being a Christian, I believe that people have a soul and that we are more than a complex set of chemical reactions. So, what is the state of her soul? Is she trapped in her dead body, like a jail? Sounds like purgatory to me...Wouldn't it be better to just free her soul and let her be with God?
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Originally posted by Davo:
What beliefs are being forced upon people?
The ones that remove their choices.
P.S. Saying that the "save Terri movement is fueled by religious people" is much different from saying "there is a religious component to this," which is what I personally have been saying. BTW I'm not left wing (although I can see how my frequent criticisms of Bush could lead one to believe I am).
E0 #36
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Originally posted by ODC:
Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
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As a roman catholic, I find people like you disgusting.
I'll take that in a good way...So, me caring about this woman is disgusting? Me caring about the future of my family and the United States is disgusting? Explain please...
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First of all, Half the country is not christian, let alone follow some form of religion. That alone means that religious principles have no place in governance of a nation.
Where's the statistical data to back this up? In the first place, if religious principles have no place in government, then most of the laws regarding MURDER need to be thrown out. If there is no God, per say, then why do we have laws regarding anything? What makes one way better than another? You're Catholic, tell me what the Bible says about world governments? Eh?
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Secondly, Ms. Schiavo's burden is not a right-to-life issue. She is not merely 'unproductive', she is merely a vegetable. Nobody can fathom what state she's in, but it is plain to see she is suffering immensely with little hope of recovery.
YOu say NOBODY can fathom what state she is in, but you say she's a vegetable. Tell me what that definition would be...She breathes on her own, her heart beats on her own, she moves on her own...I don't know many vegetables that can survive by themselves.
Nobody knows what she is experiencing except herself. We don't know what she would say if she could. I'm simply saying that why is she being killed by starvation? Why does Michael Schiavo want her dead so badly?
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Her husband for many years would like to end that suffering.
How do you know that?
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Her parents think that whatever hope there is, is worth keeping her alive for.
And again, what is wrong with this? Let them do it.
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I find it disgusting you turn this family tragedy into a political circus to expound your beliefs on masses yet again in the most obnoxious and facetious ways possible.
How did I do that?
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The church, the politicians, the government hold NO weight in what this family decides. STAY OUT OF IT.
Actually, they hold a lot more weight than any of the family themselves. Michael could not have the feeding tube pulled were it not for the law (government, politicians, politics) itself. Only the law allows an act like this to take place. The government has been holding the life of Terry Schiavo for 15 years now. If not, Michael obviously would have ended it a long time ago.
On the other hand, you can't separate church and our society. Church plays a huge roll in it. The problem with our society is that church and the standards and morals it provides have been pushed to a "private" issue, rather than a public issue.
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Originally posted by Keith W:
This may turn out to be more than right to die/right to live/states rights if what might be the real truth ever comes out in the courts. Check this
and then this
It sounds like it could be an attempted murder by Michael gone wrong for 15 years. Question: Why would he turn down the money he was offered to walk away from it all if he has a new girl and a couple of children and if he is of clean conscience ? He may not be. So please stop arguing the political points of what is going on for just a moment and objectively listen to the audio links here on this post.
I actually listened to this. I also listened to his broadcast when he changed his mind. If you listen with an open mind, you would find that much of what Michael wants to do is very logical and sensible, though they are being marketed as the acts of this horrible monster.
The parents basically kicked Michael out of their home for not sharing his court settlement. There is an animosity between the parties. Yet Michael doesn't return their tactics of character assassination. I don't think the Schindlers are bad people... but I do think they are acting in what they want versus what they think Terri wants.
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
Rex: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, Harbor Blue.
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Originally posted by Zoom Zoom Diva:
The parents basically kicked Michael out of their home for not sharing his court settlement. There is an animosity between the parties. Yet Michael doesn't return their tactics of character assassination. I don't think the Schindlers are bad people... but I do think they are acting in what they want versus what they think Terri wants.
I also find the character assassination of Michael Schiavo to be quite despicable. I believe he's doing what he thinks is best for his wife (doesn't mean it's best though), but there are some people who think he's some kind of murderer. And since what he's doing now can hardly be classified as murder, people are making up stories about how he wanted her dead. I even heard someone say he tried to kill her with insulin. Please.  I am quite uncomfortable when members of the right wing engage in character assassination.
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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
WAKE UP PEOPLE!! We can't go around killing everybody that is not productive in our society, including Terry Schiavo. Don't you think that if this hadn't been that big of a deal she would have been let go in peace 13 years ago? No, her parents don't want to see their daughter die at the hands of this jerk who calls himself her husband, who left his wife years ago for another. There is more to the story than just the fact that she's in the state she's in and her husband feels it's time for her to go on. He wants her dead for some reason or another, and for our country's sake, I hope and pray that the feeding tube is reinserted.
It's not that she isn't productive in our society, there are many people that aren't productive. It's that she is BRAIN DEAD. The husband left her after 5 years of standing by her brain dead side. FIVE YEARS. He can't wait for ever. He MAY want her dead for a reason, but you're just assuming that. Most likely, he wants to be kind and caring and let her pass on to a better place. BUT that has nothing to do with politics and congress should never have gotten involved.
Excellent post Kremit!
Now, why don't all those people who down there in Florida, screaming a "right to life"! Go to thier local homeless shelter and help them out, or protest about the horrible conditions of our foster system. They DON'T. You know why? Because, it was not the "IN" thing to do.
IIRC, I seen NO ONE putting red tap over thier mouths with hundreds of thousands of women and children who were being raped and starved to death. You know why? Because, it was not the "IN" thing to do. Do, you all see a trend?
IMHO, these people don't give a damn about this lady. They all are just caught up in the moment. 10 years from now they won't even remember the lady. Hell, the country won't even remember.
"How quickly we forget". -Anderson Cooper
Whoops! Now we got doctors making diagnoses from video tape, I can't wait to get sick or really hurt.
Last edited by Antonio Wright; 03/24/05 01:24 AM.
Now I hate America? That is a new one to me.
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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:
Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
WAKE UP PEOPLE!! We can't go around killing everybody that is not productive in our society, including Terry Schiavo. Don't you think that if this hadn't been that big of a deal she would have been let go in peace 13 years ago? No, her parents don't want to see their daughter die at the hands of this jerk who calls himself her husband, who left his wife years ago for another. There is more to the story than just the fact that she's in the state she's in and her husband feels it's time for her to go on. He wants her dead for some reason or another, and for our country's sake, I hope and pray that the feeding tube is reinserted.
It's not that she isn't productive in our society, there are many people that aren't productive. It's that she is BRAIN DEAD.
BRAIN DEAD! So many conflicting ideas. In the first place, you don't know that for a fact. Obviously she isn't completely brain dead, or her heart and lungs would have stopped by now. (Hence...VEGETABLE STATE)
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The husband left her after 5 years of standing by her brain dead side. FIVE YEARS. He can't wait for ever.
He can't wait forever? What kind of vow did he make to her when they got married? (assuming they said the standarad marriage vows)...
Five years isn't the max on the marriage contract. You are to stand by your WIFE and FORSAKE ALL OTHERS UNTIL DEATH DO YOU PART!(NOT VEGETABLE STATE)!! Does the vow mean nothing simply because your wife is unable to communicate? No. It's still a vow, one that he obviously did not uphold therefore breaking the marriage contract.
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He MAY want her dead for a reason, but you're just assuming that. Most likely, he wants to be kind and caring and let her pass on to a better place. BUT that has nothing to do with politics and congress should never have gotten involved.
Well, let's assume his thoughts are completely pure, and he actually believes that she requested that she never be kept alive like this. Fine.
It STILL has everything to do with politics, because the House and Senate write the legislation that allows Michael Schiavo, or anybody else in his position, to make the decisions that he is allowed to make. Unfortunately, as we have seen lately in several cases and cases past, judges have overstepped their boundary and actually forced judicial decisions on everybody in the United States. Judges are to interpret law, not make law.
SO YES, IT STILL HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH POLITICS AND CONGRESS!!
And as I have said above and will continue to say...
I believe in states rights as much as anyone and don't think Congress should step in and override, but there are times when a Federal Level law must be set into place for the protection of each individual citizen. In the same way that we will give appeal after appeal after appeal to a death row inmate, so we should also give those fighting for the life of their daughter the right to appeal.
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Originally posted by 99SESPORT:
I'll take that in a good way...So, me caring about this woman is disgusting? Me caring about the future of my family and the United States is disgusting? Explain please...
I am not claiming that you do not care about any or all of the above. However, the people allied with the Schindler's do not have a monopoly on that care. There are times when the greatest thing you can do for a someone you care about is to let them go.
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Nobody knows what she is experiencing except herself. We don't know what she would say if she could. I'm simply saying that why is she being killed by starvation? Why does Michael Schiavo want her dead so badly?
Maybe because it is time for her to rest in peace. I wish there was a more humane way to do it, and there is morphine to ease her suffering. However, the starvation process is still far less than being imprisoned within your own body for what is almost certain to be decades more. She has been imprisoned for 15 years... set her free.
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Her husband for many years would like to end that suffering.
How do you know that?
And how do you know otherwise, or that her parents are wanting what they believe Terri wants, and not what they want?
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Her parents think that whatever hope there is, is worth keeping her alive for.
And again, what is wrong with this? Let them do it.
What is wrong with this is that it keeps Terri imprisoned within her own body in an existence worse than death could ever be. Let her go. Let her rest in peace.
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Actually, they hold a lot more weight than any of the family themselves. Michael could not have the feeding tube pulled were it not for the law (government, politicians, politics) itself. Only the law allows an act like this to take place. The government has been holding the life of Terry Schiavo for 15 years now. If not, Michael obviously would have ended it a long time ago.
Unfortunately, the parents with every manipulation known to our legal system has been forcing Terri to exist in this state, versus setting her free on the path of eternal life.
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On the other hand, you can't separate church and our society. Church plays a huge roll in it. The problem with our society is that church and the standards and morals it provides have been pushed to a "private" issue, rather than a public issue.
One must separate church and government. There is no one consistent set of religious standards and morals held by our entire society. This is why the First Amendment prohibits the establishment of any religion, and to govern by the principles of any religion is an establishment of that religion.
The religious and moral issues are not clear cut here, as many would like you to believe. There are those who believe that God has called Terri to Him, and did that 15 years ago. All this wrangling amounts to humans interfering and preventing Terri from answering that call.
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
Rex: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, Harbor Blue.
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Where did the Schindler's come into this?
And on top of that there is a more humane way to do it. First of all, let her die naturally. Taking food away is by no means "natural."
And as for her husband, who knows why he wants it, or why her parents don't want it. The point is, is that one person wants death before any real treatment or therapy, the other wants life with treatment and therapy because they know that she is in there. I won't argue with them. I can't imagine the amount of time they have spent just holding their daughter's hand.
As for being trapped in her own body...Can't really say much to that, but you're trapped in your body, I'm trapped in mine, and there are limitations we all have to deal with. I can't do things I want, I have problems that I have to deal with on a daily basis. We can't just turn to death when we are tired of dealing with them. It's a bad way out.
As for her parents "forcing" her to be in this state, it's not her. Her husband has, as has been stated before in this conversation and many other places, has refused many of the necessary treatments and therapies that Terry Schiavo would need to get better.
And as for the separation of church and state. The constitution was written so that the CHURCH would be protected from the corruption of the government, not that the government would be completely separate from the church.
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If you're going to bring up Michael Shiavo, then I'm going to bring up the Schindlers. If the motives of one are relevant, so are the motives of the other.
The Schindlers want to keep her on a force-feeding life support system. Feeding tubes are by no means natural. If the feeding tube is a natural way of eating, then a respirator is a natural way of breathing.
I see the situation very differently than you do. I see it as a woman who is being artifically kept alive since she died 15 years ago, because the parents are too wrapped up in their own loss to let Terri rest in peace. Forcing people to remain trapped in an existence like this is inhuman and wrong.
The Constitution was written to protect the citizens from having government force a single brand of religious and moral thought upon the people as well as to prevent religion from being corrupted by government.
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
Rex: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, Harbor Blue.
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