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Originally posted by sigma:
Quote:
Over here they have better political representation (yes there exists other system outside the two party system), better education, and people are treated if sick. This is a liberal society based on liberal values just was the US was over 200 years ago.
Do what?
Please explain how you deduce the fact that the US was a "liberal society with liberal values" 200 years ago? Because you'd be about the only person to claim such a fact.
Ok sorry I didn't make it clear. What I mean is it seems Packrat feels he would be giving up some sort of liberty by being in a socialist system. The US was born of the Enlightenment and Liberalism and today I don't find it very Liberal at all. I am not talking about Liberalism as in what the Democrats claim as Liberalism. I am talking about what the US was founded on, classic liberalism. This has a stress on rights property, natural rights, and the need for a limited government via a constitution. It is better defined here . If you scroll down to Classic Liberalism you'll see what I mean. All I am saying is that it is possible to have a society that has Social Medicine and good education and still be liberal.
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However limited goverment and Social Medicine are completely contrary to each other.
Brad "Diva": 2004 Mazda 6s 5-door, Volcanic Red
Rex: 1988 Mazda RX-7 Vert, Harbor Blue.
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Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
I'd rather have social medicine and education than special interests running my country. What exactly do you think you are giving up with Social systems? I have no voice in the US, expensive health care, and a crap primary education system. Over here they have better political representation (yes there exists other system outside the two party system), better education, and people are treated if sick. This is a liberal society based on liberal values just was the US was over 200 years ago. Stop seeing Socialism as enemy to liberty. Tell me, which system would you rather live in? Don't get me wrong, I love the US but it needs a lot of work right now.
Since you had a good time at MY country's expense, I'll share a few of my own humble thoughts. The concern with socialism is the classic failure to recognise that man is by nature..lazy. Socialism promotes the "minimum to get by" attitude. 35 hour work weeks, lousy employment rates, poor GDP result. Allow others to protect and defend you, allow others to invent, develope new tech that you benifit from, develope new medicines to save your lives while you reap the discount of free R&D. With your increased "free time" you countrymen discuss at length the latest highly biased newspaper editorials and pontificate on the humerous American characture they have generated and their own moral superiority. It is no coincidence that one of the few contributions Austria has made to medicine is psychoanalysis. And when America suceeds at spreading democracy, they will attempt to claim credit. Euros too quickly point a finger at America for the ills of the world and too soon forget the Amercia that stood against Nazi and Soviet expansion. We rarely give much pause to this Eurocentric self indugence as we are busy changing the world. Which reminds me, I have a bunch of sick people with no insurance to provide free care for.
P.S. Swartzenegger had you guys pegged...
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Excuse me Dan but I am an American! The biggest problem that I have with MY country is that it is falling prey to special interests. Sure get ride of social programs to corporate enterprises and sure they will serve the publics needs but at what expense. More and more of our money is going into things such as medical costs. You work harder to get the same results you got a decade ago. I am not saying that Socialism is the answer, I rather believe there hybrid system we have works but needs work. I would just rather not be only seen as a customer but as a citizen. At the moment my government treats me as a potential terrorist and a customer and nothing more. It seems to me that the government has been serving corporate interests for the last 30 years rather than it's own constituency; that being the people. You do realize that 1/4 of Americans trust the US government, less Americans trust the government than during the Nixon period. Also it is true that Europe has relied on US military support but whenever the EU has talked about creating an EU defense force the US has come in and told the RU that the US will continue to protect the EU. It's a problem on both sides. My response about Socialism was more to go against this knee jerk reaction that so many have that Socialism is evil. Also I don't read the news papers here, you are right that they are biased. You have to realize that reporting of the news in the US is just as biased the other way.
BTW Swartzenegger is nothing like any of the Austrians today.
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Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
Blah blah blah
I think you've been overseas too long, you've been bamboozled.
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Originally posted by PackRat:
Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
Blah blah blah
I think you've been overseas too long, you've been bamboozled.
There was a point in saying that? I was like this before I left. Please just stick to my arguments because who or where I am has nothing to do with the argument.
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Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
Please just stick to my arguments because who or where I am has nothing to do with the argument.
Yes it does. You tried to make the point that because you live overseas and like it then you are qualified to determine that there are places in the world that have higher quality of life than the United States. A lot of what you've said in this thread has been of the 'I live here, so....' tone. PackRat's point certainly had place in this argument.
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Originally posted by Davo:
Originally posted by Wien_Sean:
Please just stick to my arguments because who or where I am has nothing to do with the argument.
Yes it does. You tried to make the point that because you live overseas and like it then you are qualified to determine that there are places in the world that have higher quality of life than the United States. A lot of what you've said in this thread has been of the 'I live here, so....' tone. PackRat's point certainly had place in this argument.
Point well put, tou�·ch�©.
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Sean, Pack, Davo and Z. Z. Diva all made excellent points.
I agree that socialism (even the moderate socialism practiced in much of Europe) is far from perfect. But that's not the real point here. What I am concerned about are the glaring defects of American capitalism. Big money has gotten its hooks deep into the democratic political process, and the average citizen is being fleeced.
As I said in my original post: when business dominates our public policy apparatus, the average citizen no longer holds the reins of power. Let's face it. Business' agenda for us is to work longer hours, for less pay, and less health insurance, and less job security, and . . . well, you get the idea.
Boys, I saw what life was like here thirty and forty years ago. I can tell you that we are getting the shaft today. A man used to be able to raise a middle-class family on average wages. A man could count on a pension, affordable health care, and social security. Those things were NOT outright socialism. They were a modest social safety net. They are not too much to ask for, not in the richest country in the world. And they are going away, bit by bit.
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Originally posted by caltour:
I agree that socialism (even the moderate socialism practiced in much of Europe) is far from perfect. But that's not the real point here. What I am concerned about are the glaring defects of American capitalism. Big money has gotten its hooks deep into the democratic political process, and the average citizen is being fleeced.
As I said in my original post: when business dominates our public policy apparatus, the average citizen no longer holds the reins of power. Let's face it. Business' agenda for us is to work longer hours, for less pay, and less health insurance, and less job security, and . . . well, you get the idea.
Socialism is not just imperfect, it is probably not a viable long term option. "Big money" is intertwined in government and that causes problems. But not just big corporations but big law, big unions, big medicine, big (insert type) activist groups. Too a degree, they balance each other out...but to a degree, they do make government work for them and not the "average" citazen. I believe in less influence for lobbiests for ALL these entities but it is hard to regulate. I do think it is mistake to lean TOO hard on big corporations however. While they certainly can potentially shaft the worker, they are in an ever increasingly global, increasingly competative situation...and if they do not perform BETTER than the overseas competition we as a nation take a big hit in terms of state & federal taxes, trade deficit, GDP, and jobs...ie. we ALL get the shaft.
I think it is just counterproductive to treat big buisinesses as an evil that must be tightly controlled..as some foriegn competitor having no such restrictions will clean their perverbial clocks..
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