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Originally posted by Davo:

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For real?

Think of something other than beer and ski slopes, Sean.

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Originally posted by Davo:

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Must be why Americans are leaving the country in record numbers and immigration has completely haulted with the countries listed above being the most popular destination for emigrants.

Oh wait those things aren't true.

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[sarcastic humor]Tell me about it. My rafting operation from Florida to Cuba hasn't netted me jack-sh!t, even with Bush winning a second term...

It's rare when you can find a business that kills two birds with one stone: 1) You remove liberal wackos and populate them on enemy shores and 2) they PAY you to help them relocate!

Alas, I must have misread the market, though. No takers as of today...[/sarcastic humor]


On a more serious note, some of what the article speaks of IS true and is of a concern; the way that caltour frames things in his preamble to the piece certainly doesn't tell the entire story, though.

It would take a year to address everything that the article touches on at a 60,000 ft. level; I'm going to hit the one I think is the most important (well, here in the US), as it concerns the bulk of the population, from the poor to the well-to-do upper middle-class:

Consumer debt is a disease that MUST be curved. There are just FAR too many people that exist of off the supplemental income that high-interest debt provides and far too many do it for all the wrong reasons. Too many people view credit cards as a "magic wand" to help them live beyond their means, instead of a tool to assist in lean times. What kills me is that many people could go to the bank and secure a $5-10K loan using their personal assets as collateral (paid-off car, inheritance, etc.) to assist them at a fraction of the rate that credit card companies push onto consumers. I'm talking 7-10% with far more flexible payment plans instead of the typical 20% and up rate + prime that exists with credit card companies. Late payment penalties from banks are usually NOWHERE near as nasty as credit card companies are, too.

Too many people also take what they get from CC companies. I call mine 4 times a year, DEMANDING that they lower their rates or telling them that I'll switch to another company. Despite the fact that I rarely carry a balance on any of them more than a month or two, I've gotten rates down under 10% on all but one. I've had a few give me 0% for 6 months on all purchases, just to keep my business. Heads-up for those of you that don't do this...

Once any personal consumer debt issues are solved, people need to learn to live within their means and SAVE! It seems that a large portion of the US population (no matter what their income level) saves far less of their annual income than most other financialy sound populations on this planet.

Why is this?

I refuse to believe that overall it's due to rampant inflation, rising medical costs, rising insurance costs, unemployment, etc., etc., when damn-well half the people I interface with or come across throw FAR too much money at higher-dollar cars, fancy furniture, designer fashions, extravagant vacations, impressing their friends with high-dollar dinners, etc., etc., all the while trying to float a 4- or 5-figure credit card balance. Too many people are trying to play the "keeing up with the Joneses" game, whether they know it or not and most of those doing so are putting their financial future at risk.

When you're pulling down a salary that's dipped into the 6-figure range, certain luxuries don't eat a hole in your wallet like they do when you're pulling in $40-50K a year, (though I do know more than just a few high-rollers that are up to their eyeballs in trouble due to them trying to live like multi-millionaires on 1/10th of the income). There's just too many US citizens that have bought into a "consumerism" lifestyle and live it like there's no tomorrow.

Let me put it this way: How much money you have coming in IS important, but NOWHERE near as important as how much you have going OUT of your pockets.

I would put forth that if the US population was much more fiscally responsible and less spendthrift acording to their level of income, many of the temporary economic woes that cycle in and out through the years would be MUCH more tolerable. Some economic changes can't be prevented due to uncontrollable demographic, political or natural issues; the Baby Boom phenomenon that's going to assail social security and the medical industry in the coming years is a good example of one. However, like a storm, they can be weathered properly by individuals or groups of individuals that prepare themselves.

A person with no savings, lots of debt and no financial plan in today's world is no different than someone living in the middle of a field with no roof over their head; the exposure to the elements and whims of nature will most likely kill the poor idiot. Conversely, the man who has one, even if it's a tarp and a few tent stakes tying it to the ground, stands a better chance of surviving things that come their way than the man with NOTHING and no plan...

To get back on track, this isn't to say that rising insurance premiums, rising inflation, runaway medical costs and the ever-present concern of higher taxes are mere phantoms:

Far from it.

However, they ARE NOT the main catalyst behind the average US citizens economic concern, despite what the US news outlets would have everyone to believe. These are typically responses to lifestyle, buying and ideologly trends that the US citizenry represents as a whole, in addition to the complex business, political and legal climate that exists here. Mix in a variety of education levels and human nature (reluctace/fear of change) in terms of how that effects upward mobility in a capitalistic society and you have the larger pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that makes up this topic.

Ultimately, the sheer complexity and mostly uncontrollable nature of all of this at a personal level should reinforce one thought: these issues are outside the immediate and direct control of any citizen or group of citizens for the most part.

To sum it all up: people can be much better-protected from rising costs, economic turmoil and financial hiccups if they have removed themselves from the Hell of consumer debt and the tightwire without a rope scenario of no savings. Ultimately, personal accountability can help protect you from some of the bad decisions that past generations, previous politicians and echoing financial situations impose on the US population from time to time.

It doesn't solve inflation issues, control runaway medical expenses, lower insurance costs, but it can make life more tolerable in the long-run...

Originally posted by tiv:

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Originally posted by Davo:

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For real?

Think of something other than beer and ski slopes, Sean.

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Like what ? Crime rate ? Level of basic/HS education ? Percentage of population living below the poverty limit ?

T.

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Originally posted by Wien_Sean:

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Davo, I love my country, but I am not so sure the US is the best place in the world to live.

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Originally posted by tiv:

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Like what ? Crime rate ? Level of basic/HS education ? Percentage of population living below the poverty limit ?

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Originally posted by Davo:

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Originally posted by tiv:

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Like what ? Crime rate ? Level of basic/HS education ? Percentage of population living below the poverty limit ?

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I don't get what your point here is. But I do have a solution to poverty: make the poverty level $1 and it will be all but extinct. Even those in 'poverty' in the United States live better than most people in the world.

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Technically I'm at the poverty line and I go hungry every night because I can't afford filet mignon and lobster for dinner.

Originally posted by PackRat:

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Originally posted by tiv:

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Originally posted by Davo:

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For real?

Think of something other than beer and ski slopes, Sean.

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Like what ? Crime rate ? Level of basic/HS education ? Percentage of population living below the poverty limit ?

T.

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Crime rate in Europe is rising.

From what a teacher I had told me from her time teaching in a German school, European kids are just as much slackers as US kids. Plus high, high taxes. NO thanks.

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How about you come over hear and live here. Kids and teens are slackers anywhere in the world. The fact is they are getting out of high school a lot better prepaired for the world than American students.

Crime is still very low. The worst problem right now is petty theft. People here live very good lives and I am not talking about beer and the slopes. Davo, I have never skied in my life.

It is true that taxes are higher here but that pays for so many things. The education is good and health care is great. Even private health insurance is cheap, 20 euro a month and thats a small fraction of what I was paying in the US. No place is perfect, Europe is no exception. I see so many problems with the US at the moment I find it hard to see it as the beacon of hope and Democracy. It has become a haven for Super Patriotism and Anti-liberalism.

btw Davo you can still come and visit, because the Beer is good and the slopes, from what I hear, are even better.

Originally posted by Wien_Sean:

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Originally posted by PackRat:

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Originally posted by tiv:

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Originally posted by Davo:

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For real?

Think of something other than beer and ski slopes, Sean.

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Like what ? Crime rate ? Level of basic/HS education ? Percentage of population living below the poverty limit ?

T.

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Crime rate in Europe is rising.

From what a teacher I had told me from her time teaching in a German school, European kids are just as much slackers as US kids. Plus high, high taxes. NO thanks.

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How about you come over hear and live here. Kids and teens are slackers anywhere in the world. The fact is they are getting out of high school a lot better prepaired for the world than American students.

Crime is still very low. The worst problem right now is petty theft. People here live very good lives and I am not talking about beer and the slopes. Davo, I have never skied in my life.

It is true that taxes are higher here but that pays for so many things. The education is good and health care is great. Even private health insurance is cheap, 20 euro a month and thats a small fraction of what I was paying in the US. No place is perfect, Europe is no exception. I see so many problems with the US at the moment I find it hard to see it as the beacon of hope and Democracy. It has become a haven for Super Patriotism and Anti-liberalism.

btw Davo you can still come and visit, because the Beer is good and the slopes, from what I hear, are even better.

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