it does not matter how much the dealer paid for it. he has to make a profit so he can only go so low and still stay in business. your job is to find out how low that is. make your offer now and he just may take it. you having a trade in with a balance owed complicates things as far as what you will ultimatly pay for the car because he can juggle the numbers to make it look like a deal. just remember, he usually wins bigtime on a trade in deal. you are much better off selling your car outright. i love it when someone trades in a car because it usually means i am going to make more money from the deal. laugh