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If streamlining and automation are the answer, why not do away with Pharmacists? Build vending machines that require the insertion of doctor issued prescription cards. For that matter doctors can be phased out and replaced with computer databases and automated body scan robots. Surgeons are obsolete, robotic arms and laser guided scalpels, could do the job faster and cleaner.
And it'll happen, someday. Its a matter of progress.
As farms became more productive, they employed less workers, and used less land, yet produced more crops. Farmers were outraged, yet we moved on. Today, America produces something like 50x the amount of farm-goods we did 100 years ago, with 5% of the farms we had then. Progress is GOOD, people.
The same happened in the automotive world. It's happening in IT now, and it will happen in Medical, Financial, and more in the future, its only a matter of time.
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I am fully aware that putting peg A in hole B might not warrant $15/hour, however, I'm putting myself through college while working as a welder in a factory (I'm in a "skilled" position, state certified baby, and I'm earning AT the poverty line) and although automation is nice, YOU STILL NEED PEOPLE to monitor the machines and quality check the parts.
You made my point for me, even though you didn't mean to. I've bolded the portion that helps my stance. Later on in life, you might find yourself as this person, because you are highly skilled, and have the background needed. I have always said, there will always be a need for skilled workeres, its just at what skill level you are talking. I can see a quality control person earning $25-$35 / hr, once they can save the money by automating the rest of the workforce. That's where skill labour comes in. We're saying that high-school dropouts shouldn't get $15 / hr to press a button just because they are in a union, I say outsouce that job or automate it. Bottom line, profits.
I had an interesting debate last nite with a friend, and I'd like everyone elses take on this. Here's two scenarios, which one do you feel is better for the American economy?
a) An overseas owned corporation builds 25+ plants in the US, and employs 250k Americans. Their products are sold worldwide.
or
b) An American owned corporation builds 25+ plants overseas, and employs 250k foreigners. Their products are sold worldwide.
I see the merit in both, and I won't post my choice until after others have made theirs, and then I will post my reasonings, as well.
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Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of automation, programming the sh*t is fun, and I don't really have a problem with manufacturing going overseas; lower cost of living only requires lower pay.
The problem I have is the attitude that only the well educated should be paid enough to have a home (someplace to live), food, and clothing. All working adults should be paid average cost of living plus 1% despite what career field they are in. Let's face it, we need custodians, lawn-care, fast-food, cashiers, etc, etc... as much as we need doctors, lawyers, managers, etc, etc... However, there will never enough "High Paying" positions to support the demand if everyone has a college education. When mistreating employees can no longer be blamed on lack of a college degree, what will the excuse be then?
Unless more people are suddenly going to join my campaign to restrict/licence human reproduction, society will continue to grow and thusly require jobs for the adult population, jobs that MUST pay enough to survive on. Otherwise, we have failed as a society.
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I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty
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I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty
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Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
Originally posted by Pope:
The Workforce Must Unite and Work for the Good of Everyone, or else I will be the end of us all.
To the same end, why not advocate that consumers unite against buying imported goods and buying only American products and services. Even when (and it will) cost more. The tech person from Dell is in India...hang up. The WRX is made 95% in Japan (I do not know, just for example purposes)..take a pass. No more cheap imported food or clothes, or furniture, or electronics. Just say no.
What is the difference either way? We either take lower wages and pay less for the products made overseas, or make more money and buy american.
"If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit"
-Mitch Hedberg
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Originally posted by Pope:
Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of automation, programming the sh*t is fun, and I don't really have a problem with manufacturing going overseas; lower cost of living only requires lower pay.
The problem I have is the attitude that only the well educated should be paid enough to have a home (someplace to live), food, and clothing. All working adults should be paid average cost of living plus 1% despite what career field they are in. Let's face it, we need custodians, lawn-care, fast-food, cashiers, etc, etc... as much as we need doctors, lawyers, managers, etc, etc... However, there will never enough "High Paying" positions to support the demand if everyone has a college education. When mistreating employees can no longer be blamed on lack of a college degree, what will the excuse be then?
Unless more people are suddenly going to join my campaign to restrict/licence human reproduction, society will continue to grow and thusly require jobs for the adult population, jobs that MUST pay enough to survive on. Otherwise, we have failed as a society.
It's a great utopian ideal, but it just doesn't work in a capitalist society.
Let's say I ran a McDonald's, and my regular workers made $15,000, my shift managers made $30,000, and my general managers made $50,000. I want to raise my workers wage from $15,000 to $25,000 -- great idea. But now I can't find shift managers to work because there's no significant pay incentive to do so, so I have to raise their pay to $40,000. Now I can't find general managers because their pay difference isn't enough and they'd rather work the easier shift manager spot for a bit less. So I have to pay them $75,000.
We gained nothing.
Sure, the guys at the bottom are paid more. But when everyone gets paid more the price of everything just goes up to match. Supply and Demand.
Even if we presume that the other positions didn't complain that they wanted more money, if you jack up the pay of the lower-waged, their cost of living is going to go up simply because of supply and demand. If I know everyone gets paid at least $25,000 in the country I'm not about to lowball my prices to gain market share, I don't have to anymore. Everone's got money. Cost of living goes up as people make more, are you going to continuously adjust wage to Cost of Living +1% -- it'd be never-ending cycle of increases since the cost of living would increase roughly as fast as the average wage increased.
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Originally posted by sigma:
It's a great utopian ideal, but it just doesn't work in a capitalist society.
The most influencial and intelligent Theologians and Philosophers have denounced capitalism as a proper societal model since at least Plato.
Originally posted by sigma:
Let's say I ran a McDonald's, and my regular workers made $15,000, my shift managers made $30,000, and my general managers made $50,000. I want to raise my workers wage from $15,000 to $25,000 -- great idea. But now I can't find shift managers to work because there's no significant pay incentive to do so, so I have to raise their pay to $40,000. Now I can't find general managers because their pay difference isn't enough and they'd rather work the easier shift manager spot for a bit less. So I have to pay them $75,000.
This is assuming that the primary motivational force for advancement is MONEY, in today's society where you have to advance in order to have enough money to simply SURVIVE, money is a huge motivator, however, historically POWER has been an on-going and bigger motivator. People will seek to advance for the ability to control.
Originally posted by sigma:
Even if we presume that the other positions didn't complain that they wanted more money, if you jack up the pay of the lower-waged, their cost of living is going to go up simply because of supply and demand. If I know everyone gets paid at least $25,000 in the country I'm not about to lowball my prices to gain market share, I don't have to anymore. Everone's got money. Cost of living goes up as people make more, are you going to continuously adjust wage to Cost of Living +1% -- it'd be never-ending cycle of increases since the cost of living would increase roughly as fast as the average wage increased.
This is what is concidered a "slippery-slope" argument, roughly 98% of all slipperly-slope situations NEVER pan out.
Profit capping, and continuouly adapting minimum adult wages to average cost of living, might initially cause an inflation hike, but intelligent buisness persons with concerns other than how many millons of profit they have compared to their competitors, will see that keeping costs low will allow for sales of a greater quantity of goods and diversified markets; all things that build brand and company loyalties.
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The most influencial and intelligent Theologians and Philosophers have denounced capitalism as a proper societal model since at least Plato.
True, but it's what we've got, and it's not going to change anytime soon.
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This is assuming that the primary motivational force for advancement is MONEY, in today's society where you have to advance in order to have enough money to simply SURVIVE, money is a huge motivator, however, historically POWER has been an on-going and bigger motivator. People will seek to advance for the ability to control.
Undoubtedly some will. But with additional responsibility people want additional money. It doesn't pan out 100% of the time, but a significant amount of time, yes.
Would the pay increase for upper/middle-management have go up the same amount as the average workers? Probably not. But it would have to go up. I know I sure as hell wouldn't be working in management if I could work a steady 40-hour week with minimal responsibility on the line for roughly the same amount of money.
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Even if we presume that the other positions didn't complain that they wanted more money, if you jack up the pay of the lower-waged, their cost of living is going to go up simply because of supply and demand. If I know everyone gets paid at least $25,000 in the country I'm not about to lowball my prices to gain market share, I don't have to anymore. Everone's got money. Cost of living goes up as people make more, are you going to continuously adjust wage to Cost of Living +1% -- it'd be never-ending cycle of increases since the cost of living would increase roughly as fast as the average wage increased.
This is what is concidered a "slippery-slope" argument, roughly 98% of all slipperly-slope situations NEVER pan out.
No it is not. I'm well aware of what slippery slope is, thank you. That is basic economics. If average pay increases, the average price of goods will also increase. The only way around this is decreased labor cost per unit -- i.e. less workers, or the same workers making more stuff.
I know, you're going to say they can just accept the loss against their "huge profits". And for some companies that wouldn't be so bad. But for others margin is already very very small. And it's these companies that also tend to be the very one that would be hit most by a targetted wage increase.
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Profit capping, and continuouly adapting minimum adult wages to average cost of living, might initially cause an inflation hike, but intelligent buisness persons with concerns other than how many millons of profit they have compared to their competitors, will see that keeping costs low will allow for sales of a greater quantity of goods and diversified markets; all things that build brand and company loyalties.
So you're telling me that if everyone in the US was a millionaire that we wouldn't pay as much, as a percentage of income, for our goods as we do now?
And "Profit-Capping"? What a great idea to make our companies competitive in the world market! And I bet innovation would skyrocket!
In 10 years every US company would be bought out by a global competitor that makes more profit and a better product than we could make here.
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Originally posted by Pope:
The most influencial and intelligent Theologians and Philosophers have denounced capitalism as a proper societal model since at least Plato.
Name one along with the unemployment rate and GDP of his country..
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"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
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Originally posted by Pope:
The problem I have is the attitude that only the well educated should be paid enough to have a home (someplace to live), food, and clothing.
. . .
However, there will never enough "High Paying" positions to support the demand if everyone has a college education.
This is the point that I think Sigma, Dan and Tex are missing. Sigma, Dan and Tex seem to equate a college degree (and other professional training) with high wages, and assume that low-wage earners simply failed to get the education needed to earn higher wages. But that is a false assumption. I've seen reports that show that almost two-thirds of American workers are employed BELOW their education/professional level. In other words, we have millions of college graduates working in restaurants and as office temps, and hundreds of thousands of people with advanced degrees who have never been able to obtain a job in the field for which they trained. The fact is that there are NEVER enough high paying jobs for those who want them, and there are typically hundreds of applicants for almost any job that pays over $40,000 per year (Don't believe me? Jusk ask any HR person).
It may be easy for you guys to overlook this, because doctors, realtors, and computer whizzes (especially successful ones) have no particular reason to experience these facts firsthand. But trust me, there is a huge pool of underemployed and unemployed Americans out there. Every job we ship overseas makes it just that much harder for them to get the kind of job they trained for. That's what makes outsourcing such a violation of our social obligations to unemployed/underemployed Americans.
And Pope is also right about worker's rights to enough pay to live on. Right now, people at the low end of the scale earn $7 - $10 per hour, and that is not enough for food and shelter and clothing. A "living wage" here in So. Cal. is at least $15 per hour. Right now, our economic system forces low wage workers to live in poverty. It forces them to tap into public assistance of all kinds (see my earlier post about that), and it forces them to "subsidize" the middle and upper classes with their underpaid labor. We need a minimum wage that reflects the true costs of moderately decent living. I would not mind paying more for my burritos, clothing, etc., if I knew I was helping to ensure that my neighbors are paid a fair wage.
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Originally posted by PackRat:
Pope is a commie.
I gathered as much as well.
I wonder how many of those intelligent, influential geniuses that denounced capitalism also thought the Earth was flat and was the center of the universe.
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