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Quote:
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And is $15/hour unreasonable??
For putting together a switch on an assembly line all day? Yes it is. Its those jobs that either should be outsourced, or automated.
You're point about minimum wage is futile. As Packrat said, minimum wage is not meant to support a family. At 16, or 17 years old, working a parttime job, minimum wage puts a nice little chunk of change in yer pocket, and teached you the value of the dollar. Raising minimum wage will only put MANY small businesses under.
Exactly my point, its un-skilled labor. The job is no where NEAR worth 15 dollars. A person doesnt have to go to school of any kind, and it takes no thought to put part A with slot B.
EnternalOne and packrat summed up my feelings about minimum wage pretty well.
as a sidenote I do belong to a union, and have for the last four years. I joined it my sophmore year in highschool, and the job has done me well, helping to put me through college and allowing me to afford my tour. So I suppose im being somewhat hypocritical about the 15 dollar / hour statement. But I like to think my job takes a bit more thought process 
Alex
'99 SVT Contour
-=|WANTED: Vortech, working or not |=-
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Originally posted by TheGreatOne:
What's moral or immoral isn't for me to say. You say these companies are responsible for not selling out out "national interests." Who says? You? Millions of unskilled laborers stamping sheetmetal at a factory all day? Please. Welcome to capitalism man. It's all about $$$. Where have you been?
I totally respect that you are not backpedalling or trying to spin your position here, GreatOne. But I am not clear on why you admit that outsourcing is probably not good for our country, yet you seem not to oppose it. Can you tell me why you don't oppose it? After all, I think most people who have thought it through as clearly as you have, and who are as honest as you are about it, are outraged by it. They want to change our national policy, and to salvage what's left of our once-exemplary standard of living. Don't you?
[By the way, I agree that many capitalists to not acknowledge ANY responsibility to the public, even when they are tapping public resources, or when they are putting the public at risk. But your statement about sheet metal workers having no say over big capital's effect on national interests is really saying that you don't believe in democracy, but in oligarchy.]
And one more question: why do you say that you have no right to make a moral judgement on this issue? Isn't that your fundamental right (and obligation) as a citizen of this democracy? When you abdicate that right, aren't you selling out America's economic future too?
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This is a tricky issue, simply because within our own country we have interests on both sides of the issue.
On the one hand, very few (if any) people like the idea of outsourcing, when ideally we would have an unemployment rate of 0%, and everyone of working age would be able to get a job capable of supporting at least one person.
On the other hand, many people tend to favor a quick payoff, as opposed to a long-term payoff. While bring all of the outsourced functions home to the US would give us more jobs, it would also drive prices up for many goods and services that we're accustomed to having a certain price-point. It also might drive some of the goods or services out of the reach of people who can now afford them due to the outsourcing of certain jobs (assembly, etc.).
Greed is a major factor as well, of course ... how many CEOs offer to lower their pay for the sake of American workers?
Last, but not least, is the necessary evil of capitalism - driving up values of shares in publicly traded companies, which is largely based on profits. In order to drive up profits, costs need to be lowered, and/or prices need to be raised. Raising prices may limit people's abilites to buy goods you're offering, so often times the safest way to increase profits is to simply lower costs. Also, often times the easy answer to this is outsourcing.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not happy about outsourcing, and I'm not trying to make a case for it here. I'm just illustrating how complex the issue is, and the fact that bringing these jobs home to America may cost us in a way many people aren't expecting.
ZenTroll
--The original Subaru troll!--
Minneapolis, MN
'04 Subaru 'You. Outside. Now.' (Stg II+)
'78 Camaro Z-28 (406 ci w/lots of fun bits)
'05 Yamaha R1
'03 Suzuki SV1000S
"Where are we going and why are we in this handbasket?"
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Originally posted by caltour:
I totally respect that you are not backpedalling or trying to spin your position here, GreatOne. But I am not clear on why you admit that outsourcing is probably not good for our country, yet you seem not to oppose it. Can you tell me why you don't oppose it? After all, I think most people who have thought it through as clearly as you have, and who are as honest as you are about it, are outraged by it. They want to change our national policy, and to salvage what's left of our once-exemplary standard of living. Don't you?
What is there to be outraged by? In the business world, the only thing that matters is the bottom line. Everyone knows this. You don't get anywhere by being a nice happy person and making friends. People here in america want alot of money to do BS work. Think about it, would you pay a mexican $10-$20 to cut your lawn, or a contractor $100?? These are things EVERY american person does on a daily basis, just on a bigger scale. Why is it the corporations job to basically support people who have no trade/skills/whatever? The economy isn't going to help them when they're paying out the @$$ for people who never graduated highschool or never went to college.
Originally posted by caltour:
[By the way, I agree that many capitalists to not acknowledge ANY responsibility to the public, even when they are tapping public resources, or when they are putting the public at risk. But your statement about sheet metal workers having no say over big capital's effect on national interests is really saying that you don't believe in democracy, but in oligarchy.]
I dunno about putting the public at risk, but what do you mean by tapping public resources?
As far as the sheetmetal workers go...Is it really necessary to have 2 people working a machine when their job description is to push the same button all day and then move the piece off the machine? Something that could be EASILY automated, or even outsourced since those pepole want more money for doing that job than it's worth. Granted, maybe these people had legitimate hardships getting a good education or learning a trade, but that isn't big business' fault. Those are due to other fundamental problems with our society that alot of people like to overlook.
Originally posted by caltour:
And one more question: why do you say that you have no right to make a moral judgement on this issue? Isn't that your fundamental right (and obligation) as a citizen of this democracy? When you abdicate that right, aren't you selling out America's economic future too?
Who am I to tell someone else what's right or wrong? It's a free country. No crime is being committed. No company is obligated to pay american workers 3 or more times what they could pay someone overseas. Would america still be a democracy if other people basically dictated to us how to run our businesses?? The world is changing very quickly. Our economy is not based on simple "blue collar" work anymore. People need to see this and focus on becoming a more skilled and valuable asset to a company instead of sitting around and whining about it. Survival of the fittest, yes, it even applies to us.
1999 Silver Frost SVT
#609 of 2760
Quaife, lightened SVT Flywheel, SPEC stage II clutch, removed resonator, k&n drop in - various other goodies too.
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Originally posted by Pope:
The Workforce Must Unite and Work for the Good of Everyone, or else I will be the end of us all.
To the same end, why not advocate that consumers unite against buying imported goods and buying only American products and services. Even when (and it will) cost more. The tech person from Dell is in India...hang up. The WRX is made 95% in Japan (I do not know, just for example purposes)..take a pass. No more cheap imported food or clothes, or furniture, or electronics. Just say no.
1999 Amazon Green SVT Contour (#554/2760)
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)
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Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
Originally posted by Pope:
The Workforce Must Unite and Work for the Good of Everyone, or else I will be the end of us all.
To the same end, why not advocate that consumers unite against buying imported goods and buying only American products and services. Even when (and it will) cost more. The tech person from Dell is in India...hang up. The WRX is made 95% in Japan (I do not know, just for example purposes)..take a pass. No more cheap imported food or clothes, or furniture, or electronics. Just say no.
Good point, Dan. It would be great if consumers would consistently act in their own best interest by refusing to buy certain products. Two main reasons why they almost never do so:
1) consumers typically are not aware that they are undercutting their own interests by buying goods and services produced via outsourcing, and
2) a large number of consumers do not really have a choice; they have to buy the cheapest goods available because they earn only $7 - $10 per hour (poverty line wages). Only the high earners have the luxury of choosing consumer goods based on their policy preferences.
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I am fully aware that putting peg A in hole B might not warrant $15/hour, however, I'm putting myself through college while working as a welder in a factory (I'm in a "skilled" position, state certified baby, and I'm earning AT the poverty line) and although automation is nice, YOU STILL NEED PEOPLE to monitor the machines and quality check the parts. Concidering the level of automation in today's factory, there is of-course a much lower need for people than there have been previously, but just because their job isn't difficult, doesn't mean they don't deserve to survive.
Who is more important, the corporate executive that sits in an office all day watching the production floor while drinking coffee, or the person doing simple assembly??
BOTH are equally important, the executive won't have a company to manage if the worker isn't making the parts to be sold, and the worker won't have parts to make if the managers aren't attracting or retaining customers.
If streamlining and automation are the answer, why not do away with Pharmacists? Build vending machines that require the insertion of doctor issued prescription cards. For that matter doctors can be phased out and replaced with computer databases and automated body scan robots. Surgeons are obsolete, robotic arms and laser guided scalpels, could do the job faster and cleaner. Since it's apparant that fields like these could be eliminated as easily as an assembly job, why not cut the pay from $150,000+ a year down to $14,000- a year?
But, I digress, it is true, everyone that desires to have a home, clothing, and food should get a college education, especially since un-skilled low-paying jobs out number skilled "good"-paying jobs roughly 50:1.
87 Mustang GT 5.0L TURBO
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Originally posted by Pope:
I am fully aware that putting peg A in hole B might not warrant $15/hour, however, I'm putting myself through college while working as a welder in a factory (I'm in a "skilled" position, state certified baby, and I'm earning AT the poverty line) and although automation is nice, YOU STILL NEED PEOPLE to monitor the machines and quality check the parts. Concidering the level of automation in today's factory, there is of-course a much lower need for people than there have been previously, but just because their job isn't difficult, doesn't mean they don't deserve to survive.
Wow, you get a cookie.
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If streamlining and automation are the answer, why not do away with Pharmacists? Build vending machines that require the insertion of doctor issued prescription cards. For that matter doctors can be phased out and replaced with computer databases and automated body scan robots. Surgeons are obsolete, robotic arms and laser guided scalpels, could do the job faster and cleaner. Since it's apparant that fields like these could be eliminated as easily as an assembly job, why not cut the pay from $150,000+ a year down to $14,000- a year?
Now that was just stupid.
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Unfortunately, outsourcing is the reality of a world market.Corporations must adapt or go under. Tarriffs benefit no one in the long run. Americans always have been and continue to be the best at inventing new products.
"Eagles may soar high, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."
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Common....automation has been putting people out of work since before the cotten gin. Some become "disenfranchised", others adapt and move on..this is nothing new. This is why education in "continuing education" is critical. People will no longer be able to expect to do the same job for life.
This is why lawyers are good. When the world has only one guy running one company making all the "stuff" by the push of a button, lawyers will be able to sue him so as to redistribute his wealth and feed the world!
1999 Amazon Green SVT Contour (#554/2760)
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)
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