Contour Enthusiasts Group Archives Forums General Common Interests Housebreaking a Puppy

Originally posted by caltour:

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I think you're right about the crate size, SVTNupe.

About play-biting: I read in a dog training book that if your dog play-bites, you should walk away from him, or turn your back on him. He will learn that his play-bites end his interaction with you. Saying "No!" or spanking the dog does not usually work, according to the book I read.

Dogs really need their owner to be the dominant figure. If your dog is play-biting you, it may be confused as to whether it is the dominant figure, and it is testing to see who is the "top dog". You may need to retrain your dog to establish the proper dominance/submission relationship with him. Dogs are usually unhappy if they are unsure who is the dominant figure.

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SVTNupe is right-on about crate size . Just enough room to lay down or they'll mess in the corner & lay in the other . In the crate any time you're not home or sleeping , out with you whenever you're around . Crates work , period . The most important thing with crates ... DO NOT USE IT AS A PUNISHMENT SPOT !

CalTour has got it right-on about the play biting too . Just make sure the dog knows that YOU are the "top dog" . Another good tip about a chewing/biting dog is a "shake can" . Take a few pennies & throw 'em in a beer/soda can & duct tape the top closed . If the dog is chewing on something (or what-not) give the can a shake . It's just as effective as a rolled up newspaper , without the abuse .

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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Originally posted by MxRacerCam:

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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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You don't beat them. You spank em or tap their nose. My dogs don't bite.

I don't bite either and I was spanked when I was kid. I fully believe in spanking. It works a lot better than this crap that hippies try to push onto people about talk to your kid. A kid can't comprehend that stuff, they comprehend a bit of pain (and it's more a psychological thing as kids think the pain is worse than it is). Now slapping/hitting a kid causes a completely different reaction than traditional spanking.

Of course positive praise is ALSO needed. It's a combined thing.

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no it's not. negative re-enforcement, time and time again, has shown to not work on dogs. lots of studies done on this in the psych world. and you can't compare dogs to kids. with a dog, you're essentially using PR to create a conditioned response, eventually creating a habit that the dog works within (they are very much creatures of habit).

kids have the ability to reason, dogs do not.

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BS. I have a dog. It doesn't piss on the carpet. It's happy and loving. Doesn't bite. Take your science else where, I go on real life.

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I agree 100% with Kremi... it is a combined thing. I do both praise my dog and punish my dog. To potty train the dog he would pee in the floor. I would grab him and make him smell his pee/poop in the floor. Flick his nose (too small this to lightly slap... and you hippies... it wasn't a hard flick) and place him outside. Whenever I would walk him and he used the bathroom, I would praise him. He was PT'd in about 1 or 2 weeks. You can't tell me that it doesn't work. I tried that spray stuff that your supposed to spray in a dogs mouth when he does something bad, didn't work and it felt so much worse than flicking him.

Now he is a big German Shephard, over 100 lbs, has never bitten, attacked anyone in any form. I even wrestle with him and he loves it. The only thing I can say he does wrong is not fetch properly (no he doesn't get punished for it), he grabs it and runs away, and he grabs socks.

Odd thing about the socks is that he grabs them and doesn't chew on them or anything... he just grabs them and sets them in his "resting place". Kind of wierd, we just take them back to their spot.

I love my dog and he is one of the best dogs I know. He listens for the most part and my parents even raised my baby brother around him. Now you can't tell me my dog isn't a sweetheart!

Steve

Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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Shaking a can with pennies is effective? That would just make my dog wanna play with the can.

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Originally posted by N-terst8:

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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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Originally posted by MxRacerCam:

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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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You don't beat them. You spank em or tap their nose. My dogs don't bite.

I don't bite either and I was spanked when I was kid. I fully believe in spanking. It works a lot better than this crap that hippies try to push onto people about talk to your kid. A kid can't comprehend that stuff, they comprehend a bit of pain (and it's more a psychological thing as kids think the pain is worse than it is). Now slapping/hitting a kid causes a completely different reaction than traditional spanking.

Of course positive praise is ALSO needed. It's a combined thing.

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no it's not. negative re-enforcement, time and time again, has shown to not work on dogs. lots of studies done on this in the psych world. and you can't compare dogs to kids. with a dog, you're essentially using PR to create a conditioned response, eventually creating a habit that the dog works within (they are very much creatures of habit).

kids have the ability to reason, dogs do not.

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BS. I have a dog. It doesn't piss on the carpet. It's happy and loving. Doesn't bite. Take your science else where, I go on real life.

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I agree 100% with Kremi... it is a combined thing. I do both praise my dog and punish my dog. To potty train the dog he would pee in the floor. I would grab him and make him smell his pee/poop in the floor. Flick his nose (too small this to lightly slap... and you hippies... it wasn't a hard flick) and place him outside. Whenever I would walk him and he used the bathroom, I would praise him. He was PT'd in about 1 or 2 weeks. You can't tell me that it doesn't work. I tried that spray stuff that your supposed to spray in a dogs mouth when he does something bad, didn't work and it felt so much worse than flicking him.

Now he is a big German Shephard, over 100 lbs, has never bitten, attacked anyone in any form. I even wrestle with him and he loves it. The only thing I can say he does wrong is not fetch properly (no he doesn't get punished for it), he grabs it and runs away, and he grabs socks.

Odd thing about the socks is that he grabs them and doesn't chew on them or anything... he just grabs them and sets them in his "resting place". Kind of wierd, we just take them back to their spot.

I love my dog and he is one of the best dogs I know. He listens for the most part and my parents even raised my baby brother around him. Now you can't tell me my dog isn't a sweetheart!

Steve

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Originally posted by caltour:

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Originally posted by N-terst8:

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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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Originally posted by MxRacerCam:

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Originally posted by Kremithefrog:

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You don't beat them. You spank em or tap their nose. My dogs don't bite.

I don't bite either and I was spanked when I was kid. I fully believe in spanking. It works a lot better than this crap that hippies try to push onto people about talk to your kid. A kid can't comprehend that stuff, they comprehend a bit of pain (and it's more a psychological thing as kids think the pain is worse than it is). Now slapping/hitting a kid causes a completely different reaction than traditional spanking.

Of course positive praise is ALSO needed. It's a combined thing.

---

no it's not. negative re-enforcement, time and time again, has shown to not work on dogs. lots of studies done on this in the psych world. and you can't compare dogs to kids. with a dog, you're essentially using PR to create a conditioned response, eventually creating a habit that the dog works within (they are very much creatures of habit).

kids have the ability to reason, dogs do not.

---

BS. I have a dog. It doesn't piss on the carpet. It's happy and loving. Doesn't bite. Take your science else where, I go on real life.

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I agree 100% with Kremi... it is a combined thing. I do both praise my dog and punish my dog. To potty train the dog he would pee in the floor. I would grab him and make him smell his pee/poop in the floor. Flick his nose (too small this to lightly slap... and you hippies... it wasn't a hard flick) and place him outside. Whenever I would walk him and he used the bathroom, I would praise him. He was PT'd in about 1 or 2 weeks. You can't tell me that it doesn't work. I tried that spray stuff that your supposed to spray in a dogs mouth when he does something bad, didn't work and it felt so much worse than flicking him.

Now he is a big German Shephard, over 100 lbs, has never bitten, attacked anyone in any form. I even wrestle with him and he loves it. The only thing I can say he does wrong is not fetch properly (no he doesn't get punished for it), he grabs it and runs away, and he grabs socks.

Odd thing about the socks is that he grabs them and doesn't chew on them or anything... he just grabs them and sets them in his "resting place". Kind of wierd, we just take them back to their spot.

I love my dog and he is one of the best dogs I know. He listens for the most part and my parents even raised my baby brother around him. Now you can't tell me my dog isn't a sweetheart!

Steve

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You and Kremi are saying its OK (or even desirable) to sometimes punish a dog by spanking him or flicking his nose or holding his nose in his own pee. You both say you used some of these punishments on your own dogs and they turned out fine. But I think you are not seeing the whole picture.

Dogs often tolerate a lot of mistreatment before you can see signs of its effect on them. Dogs that are occasionally beaten or moderately abused have been known to adapt and carry on without developing serious behavior problems. That doesn't mean it's OK to hit a dog or flick its nose. It just means that dogs can be pretty resilient sometimes.

[Before you get pissed off at me: I'm not saying you or Kremit are mistreating your dogs. I haven't met you or Kremit or your dogs, so it's not my place to say anything like that. I'm just saying that training by punishment (even with praise as well) is probably not good for a dog.]

Please keep in mind that mild mistreatment will probably not turn a normal dog into a dangerous or badly behaved animal. What it likely will do, though, is increase the dog's anxiety level, make him more likely to bite or run away, and make the dog fearful of humans. That can be enough to predispose a dog to attack (or start tearing up things or other behavior problems) when additional stressors are introduced. It all depends on how much punishment and what kind of punishment the dog was subjected to.

People whose dogs turn into biters (or runaways, or shoe chewers, etc.) always say the same thing: "He never did that before! He was always a good dog!" But then when you look into it a little further, the owner admits that he never trained the dog using proper techniques, he occasionally hit the dog, or he neglected the dog in some way. They didn't see the signs of impending misbehavior until it was too late. I'm not saying people who train their dogs with punishment will always end up with problem dogs - it's just that they have taken a step or two in that direction.

It's so easy to train a dog with firm, authoritative, but kind and punishment-free methods. A dog can be housebroken in just a few days if you do it right (see stevenbarker's summary of the correct method earlier in this thread). In my experience, spanking or flicking a dog's nose only slows down the process and may make the dog forever wary of people and unsure of itself, and more likely to become agressive or disloyal or destructive.

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