|
|
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,725
Hard-core CEG'er
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Jun 2000
Posts: 5,725 |
I personally don't think Brady is the superstar some people say he is. I do think he is part of a stellar squad, a team made of hard working individuals, not a bunch of superstars looking for press footage (like T.O.). Although Dillon was being pretty arrogant against the Steelers. I'm sure Coach Bill gave him a talking to after the game.
In terms of a team effortm where every member contributes to the team's overall success, I have never seen a formula quite like today's Patriots. They win games and they do it with class. They do it with bench players and starters. They do it every stadium and under every condition. And they stand by each other. None of this he-said bullsh!t that runs rampant in pro sports these days.
I was a Dolphins fan for most of my life and Marino will always be my all-time favorite QB. The days of Super Duper and Mark Clayton will always be fond memories, but seeing this Patriots team come together to beat odds, make plays, and entertain fans, has turned them into my all-time favorite team.
Say what you will about Patriots fans, the truth is EVERYONE is biased towards "their" team. But in this case, we have a leg to stand on.
For Sale:
- Sony PSP with a Baseball 2k6 and the movie Crash. $100
- 1973 Karmann Ghia Convertible w/ Auto-Stick. Needs Restoration. $1200 OBO
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198 |
Originally posted by bishop375:
Davo, what will it take for you to admit that he belongs in that class of QB?
When he does it for a team like Cincinatti or Arizona.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,889
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 1,889 |
Originally posted by zgendron:
Originally posted by RT and his SE:
and the fact that you're from the area doesn't taint your opinion at all. 
Rather than rolling your eyes, how about throwing up your top 5 teams?
In no particular order
50's and 60's Packers
Late 60's early 70's Dallas
Late 60's early 70's Miami
Mid 80's early 90's San Fran
70's Pittsburgh
Early 70's Oakland and Minnesota
Early NY Giants
Early Bears
Don't get me wrong New England is a very good team but in the diluted talent pool that is the NFL these days I don't think they're quite ready to take their place among the NFL's all time best.
99 Contour Sport SE MTX
KKM filter, B&M shifter
No res, BAT kit
Green car silver hood (because silver is faster)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,789
I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty
|
|
I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,789 |
Originally posted by Davo:
Originally posted by DrGonzo:
Oh yeah, one more question for eveyone to argue about...Tom Brady is already a two-time Super Bowl MVP. They win this year, how will you rank him with the best QBs of all time?
Not even top ten. He has benefited more from a good system more than anyone. He has Aikmanitis.
You are seriously delusional if you think Brady belongs with these guys:
Favre
Elway
Marino
Young
Montana
Manning
Starr
Tarkenton
Namath
Staubach
Unitas
If he wins again this year, he deserves to be talked about in the same sentence with anyone of those guys, repeat ANYONE of them. Farve has been the direct cause of many Packers games, Brady has a knack of not making mistakes.
"If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit"
-Mitch Hedberg
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,789
I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty
|
|
I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,789 |
Originally posted by Davo:
Originally posted by bishop375:
Davo, what will it take for you to admit that he belongs in that class of QB?
When he does it for a team like Cincinatti or Arizona.
Davo, now you are full of crap. Honestly, sit back and think about that comment. Nearly everyone of the QBs you listed could be chalked up as finding success in a system and not causing the success themselves.
My top 5 teams for a single season.
1990 49ers
1985 Bears
1972 Dolphins
1976 Raiders
1994 49ers
on the bubble:
1999 Rams
1994 49ers
2004 Pats
*biased towards modern teams because I have seen them.
Top 5 teams with sustained success.
49ers (I don't know if this is even debatable. I would have a hard time making an argument for putting any team ahead of them)
Steel Curtain Steelers teams
Early Packers teams
Current Pats
90s Cowboys team
tied with 80s redskins
Top 5 QBs
Montana
Marino
Unitas
Manning
no clear cut next best
Elway
Young
Bradshaw
Namath
Farve
I could certainly put Brady in that second group without any hesitation. Another superbowl MVP and he has to be in the first group. The only thing he doesn't have now is a long career. If he does what he is doing currently for another 5-6 years and wins a 4th Super Bowl, it's between Montana and him for best ever.
"If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit"
-Mitch Hedberg
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 7,012
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: May 2000
Posts: 7,012 |
marino is the best QB of all time. he had no team and still put the best numbers ever. it is a no brainer. 
Oo (xxx)oO
o xxxxxxxx o
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198
Hard-core CEG'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG'er
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,198 |
Originally posted by dnewma04:
Davo, now you are full of crap.
Why? If he's one of the greatest QBs ever, he should be able to work his magic anywhere.
Originally posted by dnewma04:
Honestly, sit back and think about that comment. Nearly everyone of the QBs you listed could be chalked up as finding success in a system and not causing the success themselves.
This is where the debate turns subjective. I'm saying Brady is more a part of the system than the system a part of him. You're saying the opposite. What would the Packers be without Brett Favre? Not much. What would the Patriots be without Tom Brady? Still a pretty decent team. There are certain players who make the system (Brett Favre, Michael Jordan) and those who are a part of it (anyone on the Pistons last year). We are simply disagreeing about the extent to which Brady makes the Patriots' system. You don't need to get so offended by someone not getting their bib and kneepads on for the guy.
Tom Brady is more like Kurt Warner than he is Brett Favre or John Elway.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,155
Hard-core CEG\'er
|
|
Hard-core CEG\'er
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,155 |
Originally posted by Davo:
Originally posted by bishop375:
Davo, what will it take for you to admit that he belongs in that class of QB?
When he does it for a team like Cincinatti or Arizona.
I ususally don't take any sides, but..
Word.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,789
I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty
|
|
I feel Guilty, Oh so guilty
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 4,789 |
Originally posted by Davo:
Originally posted by dnewma04:
Davo, now you are full of crap.
Why? If he's one of the greatest QBs ever, he should be able to work his magic anywhere. Has Farve, Elway, Young, Unitas, Staubach, et al worked their magic elsewhere?
I think Montana might be the only one on your list that had success in two places, one not being a great scenario to go to. There simply is no evidence to say that any of these QBs would have had success elsewhere. Of course, if I had to bet, they all would have (including Brady).
Originally posted by dnewma04:
Honestly, sit back and think about that comment. Nearly everyone of the QBs you listed could be chalked up as finding success in a system and not causing the success themselves.
This is where the debate turns subjective.
Wrong, it turned subjective with post number 1 and remained that way throughout.
Quote:
I'm saying Brady is more a part of the system than the system a part of him. You're saying the opposite. What would the Packers be without Brett Favre? Not much.
Oh, I disagree. During their superbowl season, they had a very good RB, great line, outstanding defense, superb special teams. They would have been competitive with another QB. Then, in the late 90s-early 00s when he had his thumb issues he became a detriment to the teams success. Not to rip him too much, because I do like him, but he isn't a great example.
Elway? The guy who put up decent-good stats for a long long time and finally got a superbowl when the team surrounding him became the all-around package.
Montana? QB for the greatest run any frachise ever. You could say product of the system.
Quote:
What would the Patriots be without Tom Brady? Still a pretty decent team. There are certain players who make the system (Brett Favre, Michael Jordan) and those who are a part of it (anyone on the Pistons last year). We are simply disagreeing about the extent to which Brady makes the Patriots' system. You don't need to get so offended by someone not getting their bib and kneepads on for the guy.
Tom Brady is more like Kurt Warner than he is Brett Favre or John Elway.
I'm really not getting offended at all, but you called out others saying they were full of crap, then you spewed the equal and opposite side of the crap.
Honestly, it's just too early to tell on Brady, but I would be willing to bet that if he wins the SB again and gets the MVP, he is close to being a lock for Hall of Fame in only 4 years.
"If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a fire exit"
-Mitch Hedberg
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 772
Veteran CEG\'er
|
|
Veteran CEG\'er
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 772 |
Originally posted by Davo:
As far as how many 'he' needs to win, that's a false premise. Quarterbacks don't win championships, teams do. You can only measure how critical to a team's success the quarterback is. Look at Baltimore -- who did they have as QB? Trent Dilfer. Did 'he' win the Super Bowl? No. They could have won with me under center . So your error here is in placing most of the cause for winning upon the QB.
No, the error is fans thinking they can perform at the level of a professional athlete...
You are correct, teams win championships. And this is a very good team.
Not to place "most of the cause" for two Super Bowl wins on Brady, but someone thought enough for his performance to name him MVP in both of those games.  That puts him with Starr and Bradshaw; only Montana has three SBMVPs.
Could you explain, in terms of mechanics, decision making, or leadership, what you feel Brady is lacking?
I'll give you my thoughts on Brady.
Positives...Makes good decisions; will check to the 3rd or 4th receiver, good reads at the LOS; short ball: extremely accurate; deep ball: getting better (long TD pass to Branch Sunday was about as good as you'll see). Great release, arm strength is adequate. Leadership: excellent. Does not panic against the rush, will hang in there to deliver the ball. Negatives...not the best athlete, is lead-footed, has trouble avoiding the rush; can get on a bad roll when trying to do too much (look at Miami game this season).
Is he the best QB in the league? No. Does he deliver? Yes. Will a third SBMVP guarentee a trip to Canton? You bet.
BTW, I am not a Patriots fan. I'll say it again...I am a Cowboys fan, always have been. I rooted for the Patriots Sunday because I really dislike the Steelers, and Troy Brown is a Marshall alum (and a real class act). SuperBowl? Hmmmm, one Marshall alum on Pats, two on Philly, but...I really dislike Philly, too. I'll be pulling for the Pats.
former owner, 95 SE MTX
02 Ford Explorer
|
|
|
|
|
