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Originally posted by SVT PETE:

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Sorry Shawn, but you are wrong primarily due to one statement you made:

Originally posted by moxnix:

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I know of a few other 6s drivers and even one 6i driver that would kill your car in AutoX.

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Not a chance in hell the CSVT gets "killed". That's a ridiculous statement when it's proven that CSVTs are surprising people and regularly competing with and beating cars that cost $10k+ more, and cars that are supposed to be so great at AutoX.

That video was lame. There is no basis for comparison. See above statement again.

I've driven the 6 and IMO in stock form:
Acceleration: 6 - slightly
Handling: CSVT - hands down, no contest
Braking: couldn't really do much w/ the lame salesman in there
Shifting: CSVT, easily. Clutch and shifting are more driver friendly than the 6.
Driver visibility: CSVT

So you're telling me that a car that barely out-accelerates a CSVT, but lacks in every other department is going to "kill" a CSVT? For a interesting discussion, why don't you post that in General Discussion to see what everyone else thinks?

The 6 in my eyes can be an upgrade when modified to handle like something other than a boat. By today's standards of new cars, the 6 is severely underpowered and handles very poorly - reminds me of a A4. That being said and considering how much a loaded 6 goes for ( ), I'd rather buy a blown SVT, drop in a 3 liter with all the goodies and pocket the $15+k.

I understand you have "Mazda Fever" now, but I did not realize you were literally blinded by it to make such ridiculous statements! Don't be bitter your Contour died. It's not the car's fault that you neglected it so badly!

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Well there is not a chance in hell that the 6 will get trounced in AutoX by the CSVT when fully modded for the same class. In stock class the both get owned by the Mini Cooper S and the Celica GT.

I did not say it would kill all SVT's I said they would kill Kokopellian and his car.

I dont know if this will help you but this is part of my video from the same event (GF is bad about starting taping at right time)

http://www.moxnix.org/Car/AutoX/Vid/Crossroads%20Autox/Moxnix%20run%201.mpg

Here is my times VS his times on that course.
4. 327 Bill Kratz 2003 Grey Mazda 6 63.190(1) 61.089(1) 59.824
8. 222 Shawn Roberts 2000 Silver Ford Contour 63.129 62.067 O.C.

If the CSVT is suprising people than the Mazda 6 must be suprising even more. I know my contour suprised many people out there.

Mazda has been known for making underpowered cars with very good handeling.

Pete if the CSVT is so good I want to see you out there in the spring. Once you start beating a few of the local Mazda 6 drivers that I am talking about I will belive you.

For AutoX you dont get the loaded 6.

If the CSVT is so great for AutoX you would see a lot more people on the SCCAForums that have them.

If the 6 sucks so much I would love to know how one of the local 6 drivers managed to place 4th overall in the local SCCA AutoX season (STS class).

I am an equal Opportunity defender. I defend the contour at the local 6/Protege club meets. There is actually one local guy that sold his speed and bought an CSVT because he wanted something cheap that still handles good and had seen my car at AutoX.

I dont know enough about the 3 to defend it yet I am sorry to say.

I dont have mazda fever I just defend cars that are not around to stick up for themselfs if they are ones I know about.

I am not bitter about my contour dieing. I liked the car and the way it handled. I ran my car hard but I took good care of the engine(washing is not needed maint). I am not sure where you got that I neglected my car but I dont think I did. I put lots of miles on my car and have no problems with how many miles I got out of the engine. If I had not had the accident and the dented doors I most likely would have looked very hard into the 3L swap even with it dropping me into SM class.

Kokopellian: depending on the turn I have had my stock SE doing the same thing on the AutoX course. On the last local open SCCA event of this year the course seemed to be setup for massive oversteer and I was oversteering thru almost the whole course.

Again The 6 Driver VS my times(again STS class).
*2. 650 William Kratz 2003 Grey Mazda 6 58.921 57.758 57.454 57.929

14. 640 Shawn Roberts 2000 Silver Ford Contour 63.069 61.758 61.175 60.688

Also how many modded 6's have you seen? I saw many of them this year.

Sometimes in AutoX you have to take one turn what may look wide to get a better line on the next turn or to carry more speed thru the turn. Ask anybody that does AutoX. It is not always getting as close as you can to the cones that will get you the fastest times.

I find it strange that you guys want to bench race the CSVT against the Mazda 6s in AutoX when you dont even AutoX.

Originally posted by moxnix:

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Well there is not a chance in hell that the 6 will get trounced in AutoX by the CSVT when fully modded for the same class. Driver's being equal, the CSVT would win In stock class the both get owned by the Mini Cooper S and the Celica GT. That's a given

I did not say it would kill all SVT's I said they would kill Kokopellian and his car. Hmmm, you know I now have the same setup Pete was running right?

If the CSVT is suprising people than the Mazda 6 must be suprising even more. I know my contour suprised many people out there. Mazda 6s aren't anywhere as rare as CSVTs, so more suprise factor there anyway. Yeah, your Tour suprised people as Tours weren't known for their handling capabilities.

Mazda has been known for making underpowered cars with very good handeling. I know, I own a MSP remember? And it can beat the CSVT and the 6s in AutoX.

Pete if the CSVT is so good I want to see you out there in the spring. Once you start beating a few of the local Mazda 6 drivers that I am talking about I will belive you. Like I said before, if you've ever ridden in Pete's car, you'd know what I'm talking about.

If the CSVT is so great for AutoX you would see a lot more people on the SCCAForums that have them. CSVTs are rare, bottom line, you'll NEVER see many, even in AutoX.

If the 6 sucks so much I would love to know how one of the local 6 drivers managed to place 4th overall in the local SCCA AutoX season (STS class). Never said it sucks, it's just not the ideal handling car. Your friend can obviously drive very well.

Kokopellian: depending on the turn I have had my stock SE doing the same thing on the AutoX course. On the last local open SCCA event of this year the course seemed to be setup for massive oversteer and I was oversteering thru almost the whole course. You said STOCK SE, so more body roll is a given. I know the principles of AutoX and it is indeed fun and challenging, however, suspension matters, and the CSVT has it over a 6s.

Also how many modded 6's have you seen? I saw many of them this year. A lot, since I've been down here in TX, I've seen 7. A local guy has springs on his 6s and by his own admission my CSVT and FSVT for that matter would out handle his.

Sometimes in AutoX you have to take one turn what may look wide to get a better line on the next turn or to carry more speed thru the turn. Ask anybody that does AutoX. It is not always getting as close as you can to the cones that will get you the fastest times. Understood, like I said, I know the principles and I've done AutoX a few times in the past. However, not in my CSVT or FSVT. But from what I know and remember and what I know about the 6s, I can make my judgements.

I find it strange that you guys want to bench race the CSVT against the Mazda 6s in AutoX when you dont even AutoX.

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Originally posted by SVT PETE:

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- Your #s against his mean nothing. For all I know the 6 driver is a very experienced, excellent driver and you are a terrible driver.

- Take one owner who owns drives both vehicles well and (again I restate my main point) stock the CSVT destroys the 6 - period. I never claimed otherwise.

- In modded form, who knows. YOU don't even know. You're basing your SE times vs a 6 - not SVT.

- I've never AutoXd before and you want me to go out to see how I do against modded 6s who have AutoXd before? Why don't you go try out for the NFL?

- Since when do you have to experience something in order to understand/know about it? I guess since I never played in the NFL, NHL, MLBB or NCAA what I know about it worthless.

- Because you don't see many CSVTs AutoXing means what? Nothing. You're comparing a mass produced 6 vs a limited production CSVT.

Stock the CSVT handles in amazing fashion.
Stock the 6 handles like a boat.

I guess you don't understand what means - joke.

Enough said - I'm done here as it's a pointless conversation at this point.

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He started AutoXing in 2003. I was not a bad driver by the time those numbers are from.

I do not think the CSVT is going to destroy the 6 like you seem to think it will. I think you will be suprised at what the 6 can do.

I am giving you the only numbers I had to try to help with a comparison There is only one guy I see running a CSVT and he runs stock class and the only 6s guy I know who sometimes runs stock is not using good AutoX tires and has a terminal case of slow.

If the CSVT is such a killer car it should not take long before you are beating them in it. Or offer to let some of the other drivers take your car for a few runs to see what it can do. I would rather try out for MLS but thanks for the offer.

If the CSVT was THE car to have for AutoX have you would see people out there with it no matter how hard it was to find or how much they had to pay because there are some insane peple out there that AutoX. I dont know if you read grassroots motorsports but in a recent issue they had an interview with a guy that was building his AutoX car for one of the prepared classes. Because you can use the parts from different years on one car in that class he had parts cars from the different years and was actually pulling of all the different parts and weighting them to get the lightest parts for his AutoX car. That is the kind of dedication to detail you will see from some of the insane AutoXers.

If you have never played football or basketball at all then you have no idea what it takes to play either (I have no idea what it takes to play football) so if that was the case I would say you have no clue about being a player in those games but that is not to say that you can not be a fan or know about coaching those sports. You can learn a lot from watching and reading but there are somethings that you have to get out there and actually do to understand exactly what they are talking about in the books you read.

Sorry I missed the in your other post. My bad.

Originally posted by Kokopellian:

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Driver's being equal, the CSVT would win

Hmmm, you know I now have the same setup Pete was running right?

I know, I own a MSP remember? And it can beat the CSVT and the 6s in AutoX.

Never said it sucks, it's just not the ideal handling car. Your friend can obviously drive very well.

You said STOCK SE, so more body roll is a given. I know the principles of AutoX and it is indeed fun and challenging, however, suspension matters, and the CSVT has it over a 6s.

Understood, like I said, I know the principles and I've done AutoX a few times in the past. However, not in my CSVT or FSVT. But from what I know and remember and what I know about the 6s, I can make my judgements.

As I've said time and time again, whether it's stock or a modded CSVT, I would put it up against a 6s in AutoX. I may not have raced my CSVT against a 6s or any car for that matter in AutoX, but that doesn't mean that I don't know either cars capabilities. Especially after having driven both.

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Maybe. I think it would be a lot closer than both you and pete seem to think it will be.

Lets see that would be Koni's with GC's and 19"X? rims with err I forget the tire size. You have the same sway bar also? In AutoX bigger is not always better with tires. Because you have more rotational mass on the outer edge of your tire your car has to work more to accelerate the mass.

Yes I know you know that was responding to pete. And yeah I think that will beat both of them in AutoX. Actually I think the MSP was called the best handleing FWD sedan in SCC? or some other mag when it came out.

The CSVT is not the "ideal handling car" either as I am sure you have noticed and yes he drives the boat very well.

I never mentioned anything about body roll My car had so much body roll that my GF had to hang on to the Ohh [censored] handle to keep from sliding into the shifter around turns. I was talking about oversteer. Something you dont get much of on any stock car but depending on conditions can get if you work it right.

You make yours I'll make mine.

Based on what I can think of that you have done to your car(john not pete) I think you are in the STS class. The same class I was running and the mazda 6 guy was running.

I would love to put them out there in both forms and see how they do.

Depending on the course the 6i can actually be a better AutoX car than the 6s because it had a lighter engine so it has less weight in the nose and can handle the turns better.

Originally posted by moxnix:

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Maybe. I think it would be a lot closer than both you and pete seem to think it will be. Didn't say it would be a blow out, a win is a win, even if by less than a second.

Lets see that would be Koni's with GC's and 19"X? rims with err I forget the tire size. You have the same sway bar also? In AutoX bigger is not always better with tires. Because you have more rotational mass on the outer edge of your tire your car has to work more to accelerate the mass. Yeah, for the most part, cept a smaller sway bar. I see what you mean about the larger wheel size. I'd swap em' out to 17s if I was gonna AutoX.

Yes I know you know that was responding to pete. And yeah I think that will beat both of them in AutoX. Actually I think the MSP was called the best handleing FWD sedan in SCC? or some other mag when it came out. Agreed, The MSP is perfect, pretty light, good power, etc.

The CSVT is not the "ideal handling car" either as I am sure you have noticed and yes he drives the boat very well. True, it's not, but it handles quite well. I figured the captain of the boat was a good driver.

I never mentioned anything about body roll My car had so much body roll that my GF had to hang on to the Ohh [censored] handle to keep from sliding into the shifter around turns. I was talking about oversteer. Something you dont get much of on any stock car but depending on conditions can get if you work it right. Oh, I see. True, oversteer is your friend.

You make yours I'll make mine. fine by me.

Based on what I can think of that you have done to your car(john not pete) I think you are in the STS class. The same class I was running and the mazda 6 guy was running. Perhaps, there's a lot of AXing going on down here. Maybe I'll get back into it since the CSVT isn't the daily driver now.

I would love to put them out there in both forms and see how they do. Ditto.

Depending on the course the 6i can actually be a better AutoX car than the 6s because it had a lighter engine so it has less weight in the nose and can handle the turns better. I concur wholeheartedly, that's one reason the MSP is such a good AXer.

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Originally posted by Kokopellian:

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Didn't say it would be a blow out, a win is a win, even if by less than a second.

Yeah, for the most part, cept a smaller sway bar. I see what you mean about the larger wheel size. I'd swap em' out to 17s if I was gonna AutoX.

Agreed, The MSP is perfect, pretty light, good power, etc.

Oh, I see. True, oversteer is your friend.

Perhaps, there's a lot of AXing going on down here. Maybe I'll get back into it since the CSVT isn't the daily driver now.

I concur wholeheartedly, that's one reason the MSP is such a good AXer.

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You said trounce pete said kill both sound like you think they will win by a fairly large margin if that is not what you meant by that then I agree with you other than that I am not sure that the CSVT would be on top but I think it would be close either way.

If you still have your stock 16" you might even want to go back to those for AutoX(depending on the weights of the wheels). If you plan to run STS (check Rules either here or on the SCCA site when the new rulebook comes out soon to make sure that is your correct class)
I would upgrade the rear sway bar for AutoX (had planned to this winter along with a few other mods for AutoX on my car before the car died)
Also for AutoX I dont know what tires you have now but for STS the two main competitive tires are the Kumho MX and the Falken Azenis RT-215 I was running the Kumho MX (a little longer lasting on the street and I liked what I read about them better) but many other people run the Azenis RT-215 (including the 6's that I was running against) There is a new version of the Azenis RT-215 (the 615?) coming out in the spring that they are saying will be even better (all the upsides and fewer of the downsides of the tires now)

Not saying the MSP is perfect (it would need to be RWD for that ) but it is pretty good

Not always there is such a thing as too much oversteer but I still had fun out there

Go for it and have lots of fun.

Yeah the MSP is a good AutoXer I wish we had more local ones out there.

For how much lift dive and body roll my car had check out my first AutoX video (from the headrest mount cam)
http://www.moxnix.org/Car/AutoX/Vid/MJM%20AutoX%207-18-04%20Shawn%201st%20Run.mpg

Originally posted by Kokopellian:

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I should have stipulated stock vs. stock, I thought I did? Anyway, I feel that a stock CSVT would trounce a stock 6s.

Damn stock wheels weight like 19.5 each! The 19s only weight in at 15lbs each. I'm not inclined to buy some additional 17s ya know? So if I do it it will have to be with the 16 porkers. I think my sway bar is 21mm.

Hey, it's damn perfect enough:) Anyone running a MiataSpeed on your circuit? I'd be interested to see how that go-cart does stock.

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Orginally you said your SVT could trounce any stock 6s. (a non stock to stock comparison) I offered up a video of one with less mods than yours that would kill you in AutoX
I would be happy to see any real data to prove your point (or mine for that matter) but unless you run into some good 6 drivers out there the only way I see to get it is for you to drive back to VA to run a few events

I thought you mentioned the 17"'s ? I got some nice AutoX wheels (16X7.5) for sale (with tires) cheap (but they are 19.5 pounds)

I thought the SVT had the 18/19mm like the early SE? If you have a 21mm I think that is the BAT bar.

I have seen a few once or twice but nobody that is always running like some other people are. There is one guy that used to run his but stopped before I started.