|
|
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 334
Member
|
Member
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 334 |
General Fault Protection Error:
This Calculator is not meant to calculate your calculations. Please reboot the Calculator and if this error persist then shut down the calculator in order to never see this message again.
-Thank you for purchasing the Microsoft Calculator! :rolleyes:
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,329
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,329 |
Originally posted by Chris Hightower:
Just an FYI, the 2.5L V6 running at 7000 RPMs, uses ~306CFM at 1 atmosphere. This doesn't take into account the vacuum that is created with "restrictive" intake parts and valvetrain.
To be able to build up 10 PSI in front of this 306CFM air pump, you would need to have a comressor that can produce 10PSI at ~650CFM. Thanks for the backup.  My Calc's get around ~320cfm at 7k. (have seen 22lb/min = ~291cfm indicated by MAF. With your 306cfm that's a whopping 95.1% VE Oh Yeah! ) The S60 might get 300cfm at 10psi. This is what a N/A Duratec gets... Maybe 350cfm at compressor stall (10psi). This is the reason I say it's FAR too small. The T04B S-3 listed should be around 330cfm at 10psi and ~450cfm max at compressor stall (same 10psi). Much better suited. Great looking map! Decent peak power, but still lacking low pressure CFM IMO. Though it would still make good peak power! Any turbo will fatten up the bottom & middle range - that's a given... GoodwinToo is keying on high boost pressure IMO. Yes these turbos flow decent at 15-18 psi. But are lacking at low pressure. S60 especially! * I also don't understand why he think a turbo's spool up is dependant on max boost level running. Regardless of running 10psi or 20psi a turbo will spool to 10psi at the same rate. It's just once it reaches 10psi the "wastegate" will open so it stops producing more boost.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 592
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 592 |
Jonah, Yeah i'd like them, not in a big hurry tho Originally posted by Burntgnat:
I'm just keeping up on my contour bretheren...and I'm bored, hehe. I am still getting the S4, but they're trying to screw me on the financing part of it cause I banged them on the trade in. I don't even know what will happen, but if they screw around with me much more I'm going to wait till the spring to get the new M3. I'll know by the end of the day what is going to happen...they gave me some bull**** that MidWest America can't approve me after they had told me I would definately, POSITIVELY be approved...so I said thats fine I'll just go through my bank...and then the guy said...no no, don't give up on me yet! I'll try through Audi Financial Services to get you approved, although they usually only accept doctors and lawyers...yade yada" I know he's going to call today and say...Good news! Got you approved, but you're at a bit higher rate." Car salesman are cheap mother @!$*@#!...Do you still want those baffles btw? I got to look around for them but I think they're somewhere in the parents garage.
Ryan
98.5 Silver Frost Tour SVT 5979/6535
Born: May 15, 1998
Some Mods, still not fast enough..
90 Black SHO
SVT Performance.Com
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 124
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 124 |
I also don't understand why he think a turbo's spool up is dependant on max boost level running. Regardless of running 10psi or 20psi a turbo will spool to 10psi at the same rate. It's just once it reaches 10psi the "wastegate" will open so it stops producing more boost.
Ummmmm, I dont!  Where ever did you get that idea from??(looking back over his posts..)A turbo's spool up is not dependent upon its max boost, its dependent upon the Exhaust Temp, the Amount of Exhaust flow, the Size/shape of the Exhaust side of the trbo, and the Size of the Compressor wheel... No wher ein there is the MAX boost of the turbo.. I think you missunderstood my whole Put too big of a turbo on an engine that cant handle it thing...Let me simplify this.. Yo know what a T76 Turbo is right? Try running that on your old 2.6l but at the same time decide you only want to run it at 10psi... then tell me what you come up with after thinking about it... On another Note, when your super60 only flowed a that small amount, can you tell me what Size Exhaust turbine you were using, and the housing size(A/R) along with size of the opening of the wastegate? See all of these play into effect on CFM a turbo can flow..especially at max boost(not so much when you are at lower boost levels)... anyways.. off to school.. have fun!
Tony Blatnica
99 Contour SE-Sport 2.5ATX
SVT Exhaust - Removed resonator
TH-Fix
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,037
Administrator
|
|
Administrator
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 5,037 |
Okay, so, if the Vortech compressor produces ~10PSI around 4000RPM, and we are getting maximum HP around 5000RPM, why would we need to produce 10PSI at 7000 RPM's? That would mean a compressor that puts out close to 16PSI at lower RPM's. This could be regulated with BOV and wastegate, but that compressor would be overkill for this application. I think we would need to look at the boost curve.
Obviously we would have a bell shaped boost curve. The starting, lower part would be low because of low exhaust gas volume (turbo lag). The middle part would be regulated with wastegate. The upper RPM range curve would be lower because the engine is starting to "catch up" to the turbo's compressor output.
I think it would be safe to say 8-10PSI at 5k RPM is something to shoot for. So, we are looking at the engine taking in ~218CFM at 5000RPM's N/A. To create 10PSI in front of that we would have to have ~500CFM. Can the S60 do that?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,329
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,329 |
Originally posted by Chris Hightower:
I think it would be safe to say 8-10PSI at 5k RPM is something to shoot for. So, we are looking at the engine taking in ~218CFM at 5000RPM's N/A. To create 10PSI in front of that we would have to have ~500CFM. Can the S60 do that? No. It can not. S60 can produce a max ~450cfm at 20psi (2.4) At stall - safe limit is 410cfm... The Map listed shows that. (that's why I'm confused about GoodwinToo saying it's big enough?) His math shows 290cfm (22 lb/min) at 4k & 408cfm (31 lb/min) at 6k (@ 10.5 psi) Though those numbers are rated higher than the compressor map for the S60 shows???  Since the map shows a max of 25-26 lb/min (330-350cfm) for 10.5psi (1.7) I just re-did his math - He's off by 100cfm!!! That's the problem... I knew it didn't look right. Never took the time to check... I'll bet that's also why he told me 510cfm max flow when I said 410cfm The numbers I gave last post show it's limits at 10psi (300 safe to 350cfm max at stall - I.E. high rpm)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,329
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2000
Posts: 7,329 |
Originally posted by GoodwinToo:
Ummmmm, I dont! Where ever did you get that idea from??(looking back over his posts..)A turbo's spool up is not dependent upon its max boost, its dependent upon the Exhaust Temp, the Amount of Exhaust flow, the Size/shape of the Exhaust side of the trbo, and the Size of the Compressor wheel... Cool! err... Hot.. get an intercooler...  Ported 8cm housing, .69 AR. Much better than those tiny garrett housings... Gimme flow! Oh yeah see above... Check your original math
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 124
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 124 |
OH BOY MATH!!!!! At 4000 RPM :
((4000*0.5*0.93*152)*(14.4+10)/14.4)/1758
This would yield 272.5cfm, with an Airflow rate of 19.07 and a PRessure ratio of 1.694.
Now do the same thing at say 6000RPM,you get 408, 28.61, and 1.694.
ok let me see here... 4000*.5=2000, then 2000*.93=1860, ok then 1860*152=282720 OK now 14.4+10= 24.4 , 24.4/14.4 = 1.694444 ok so then 282720*1.694444=479053.33333 now 479053.33333/1758=272.49.... isnt that what i posted??
now lets look at the second point...you get 408.64... right at your 410 that you said.. my math isnt wrong... it appears your reading Comprehension might be..LOL.. (thats a joke calm down...) here let me insert a picture
 and a quote from their page... (just citing one source)
The pictures above show three different turbocharger cartridges. On the left is the standard T25 found in the 1995-1999 DSM. In the center is the FPT2828 cartridge. Finally on the right is the standard 16g cartridge. The last picture on the right shows the difference in the standard T2 thrust bearing and the severe duty 360 degree thrust bearing used in the FPT2828 turbocharger.
The FPT2828 turbo is a direct boltin upgrade turbo for all 1995-1999 DSM's. It has a compressor mass flow rate of 35 lb/min which depending on who performs the unit conversion from lb/min to CFM is around 510CFM. This is the same flow capacity as the standard 16g turbocharger which is rated at 505 CFM. Looking at the comparison pictures it is possible to tell that the 62 trim T28 compressor wheel is about the same size as the 16g. Checking the dimensions of each wheel also shows this to be true. The 62 trim T28 wheel is actually 0.030" LARGER than the 16g compressor wheel.
Turbo Comparison
So see I'm not blowing smoke up anyones rectum, yes the Super60 Wheel when coupled to the ORiginal Housing and turbine shaft was only good for about 450CFM(at 1BAR.. all turbo manufacturers rate their flow at 1 atmosphere... not 2.5 or whatever), that I am not denying. But the people I mentioned to Chris to source the Turbo from Rate the T28 wheel at 510 CFM when attached to the VNT25 centersection and turbine.. (which would make sense since the VNT has a larger .64 A/R max at the max opening of the vanes.. compared to the smaller .48 A/R's on most super60 Applications)
Anyways.. my math wasn't off.. So,
NANNY NANNY BOOO BOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!
Tony Blatnica
99 Contour SE-Sport 2.5ATX
SVT Exhaust - Removed resonator
TH-Fix
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 124
Member
|
|
Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 124 |
I want to make one comment, when i mentioned that the compressor is at a stall point at the right of the map, thats not entirely true.. the Only STALL marking is the SURGE line, if the Compressore map continued to go to the right you would jsut get more contours of lowere efficiency.. I think you are reading The maps incorrectly Demon.
jsut my $.02 ... i might be wrong, but I dont think so...
Tony Blatnica
99 Contour SE-Sport 2.5ATX
SVT Exhaust - Removed resonator
TH-Fix
|
|
|
|
|
