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I understand completely.

I still don't see a S60 pulling 510cfm though. Not at anything below 2bar (see compressor stall; Hot air wink )
Above 18psi the S60 really didn't add much (like you stated), but with the large intercooler (FUSO from a Mitsubishi Heavy Industries medium duty truck - yes the BIG ones) the "hot air" was taken care of... laugh

This kit is also suppose-to-be a "bolt-on". So the type of mods needed to run high boost pressure and stave off detonation would work in a "perfect" setup. Just not a bolt-on or even near bolt-on setup. Intercooler or not (which I would see as mandatory IMO)

When I say "truck" engine I am making fun of the fact the Conquest TSi got a modified version of the long stroke truck engine. (like you noted earlier)
2.6L is one hell of a big 4 cylinder! I picked it because the displacement is nearly indentical. The smaller 4-cylinders you referenced would not need the CFM flow of the larger Duratec. Therefore the same CFM flow (for each) would garner much more power increase & potential from them...

I'm also not stating we need a HUGE compressor for this. Just one that's graphed to flow enough CFM at low boost pressure and stay within a decent efficiency rating.

I don't get the part about you saying it's "understandable on a large turbo running at high boost, but try running a large turbo on an engine that cant handle it" when you stated earlier that a larger compressor would spool up later (3500-4000rpm)

Boost lag (so to speak) is effected by compressor size. So I was saying a large compressor is capable of generating boost pressure early in the rpms range. One with VVNT would even be more effective. That was directed at the late spool up comment (T04E) That and having a proper setup.

Also Engine stress is not 100% realative to boost pressure. It's also CFM flow.
Like I alluded to earlier the 12A at 30psi on a stock motor would be no problem but a 20G at 15psi would eject the heads... (theoretical numbers)

You're right... This is fun... laugh

BTW - if you state the S60 can not sustain a smaller 2.3L engine at 18psi at 6000rpm.
How could it sustain a larger 2.5L engine at 6000rpm?
Now what about 7000rpm (stock redline) or 7500rpm?
Now at the lower boost level required to be run with 9.7-10.25CR?

Also back to the cam remark. If boost (cfm flow) is lost by the SVT's extra duration. Wouldn't you need more CFM flow to compensate?

I'm a fan of Volvo turbo's too... cool Never owned one, but the sleeper factor!!!

Oh yeah... Didn't mention it earlier, but I really like the compressor map for the T04b S-3. Looks like a slick unit... ...and yes! Finding maps for Mitsubishi wheels is worse than pulling teeth!


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WTF are you asking for?? Thought you were trading the GoCart in on the Audi???? What's the Dealio???


Ryan
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Some Mods, still not fast enough..
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reading all this technical stuff make me realize why they say "jet engines are for kids" they work like this: suck, squeeze, bang, blow.


"careful man, there's a beverage here."
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Quote:
Originally posted by JSmith:
they work like this: suck, squeeze, bang, blow.


Sounds like a good night out on the town to me... wink laugh


2000 SVT #674 - Check it out!

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Quote:
Originally posted by DemonSVT:


Sounds like a good night out on the town to me... wink laugh


roflmao! following in tim kirks footsteps again are we?

laugh laugh laugh


95 SE Champagne Mettalic
True Dual exhaust with X pipe and Redline mufflers
KKM Tru Rev intake
H&R Springs/KYB struts
Apex-i S-AFC
65mm Throttle Body
17" Ace Spades
4 Pt Racing Harness
Window Tint all around
New Engine @ 117k kilometers
G-Tech: 15.6 @ 91.5 MPH

"you officially kick ass"
quote from awed CEG'er after i chopped my hood and threw on scoops

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Ok, I should be going to bed, but since my toes are frozen, I guess I'll try to clarify some things...
1.Yes at 18psi on a 2.3 liter , it cant cut the mustard, but on a 2.5liter with 93%volumetric efficeicny at 10(ahem let me say that again) 10psi, The flow numbers for the Super 60 would be fine. Remember like you said earlier, this needs to be a bolt on. and a bolt on for our cars will probably only run 7-10 psi(intercooled). You wnat much more than that, and well... its not really a bolt on, but a bunch of bolt-ins.. and blow-offs... laugh As far as the redline issue, That would be a personal choice but, I for one wouldnt want to see what this engine could do at redline in 5th gear under 10psi of boost(no matter what the compression ratio)...As for the earlier gears.. well the optimal shifting point is based on the MAx Torque point, not the Redline.. so I would venture to say You might not have to shift at REDLINE to get the best run in your car...(remember RPMs on a Turbo after the gear change are very important due to Volumetric change in the engines requirements.. )
2.Yes,Boost lag is affected by compressor size. but not so much as the Exhaust Turbine is. Thats why the VVNT's have adjsutable vanes in the Turbine side, and dont have a james bond(round eye door thingy, turn and shoot!!) opening leading to the Inducer of the Compressor wheel.. even though that would look really cool...The lag on the kind of turbo's we are talking about, well the kind I am talking about would not be relaly noticable. But you add in a LARGE Compressor and the VVNT I think you can get away with it. The problem I dont think you realize is that the SHAFT diameters on a T28(essentially a super60 wheel) are different than the shaft diameters on a T3/T03/T04 family of turbo. Hence if you want to use the only VNT turbo out there that I can think of(the VNT25 by Garrett) you are limited to the largest Compressor wheel you can find to fit on the shaft diameter(remember Funny turbine side wheel cant be changed to another one.. it will come into contact with the vanes on the VNT...)happens to be the T28/Super60..IF they can make a T04B s2/s3 to fit... then damn.. go for it, its a GREAT design...
3.LOL.. actually the 12A at 30 psi would be a big stress on the motor as the impellars fly apart because you are asking them to spin at like 300,000RPMS...LOL wink
4.As far as the cam issue.. NO you would not need more overlap to compensate.. CAMS seem to be a mystery to most. But on a Turbo engine, you dont want overlap, well not alot at least, The problem is with large overlap and HIGHER boost, you are basically blowing out the exhaust tract all the goodies you are forcing into the chamber(ie more air, more fuel...) and the more you pressurize this the more you will blow out(think shaking a coke bottle, open it then close it again real quick.. if you leave it open longer, you loose ALOT more stuff. )The trick to Turbo cams is Duration and Lift. You want as wide and as flat a lobe as you can get, and thus allowing your valves to stay open longer(duration)..you can adjust this when making the cam(because you can degree the Intake lobes and exhaust lobes to give you the required seperation). You also want the cam to pus the valves open more, thus you dont get as much valve shrouding in the combustion chamber thus making the flow of gases in and out easier. NOW there is a fine line there, TOO much duration and you WILL get overlap, more than you want.. and Lift is also garnered by piston to valve clearence. But thats not all. the SHAPE of the lobe affects how the cam follower can work.. too wide a lobe and you will get a sticking point(think roller rockers and Cams)....I can go on, if youd like to PM me...
5.Damn my head hurts , I shore could use some of that squeeze bang and blow.. no wait... my GF would kill me... laugh

5a.
Quote:
I don't get the part about you saying it's "understandable on a large turbo running at high boost, but try running a large turbo on an engine that cant handle it" when you stated earlier that a larger compressor would spool up later (3500-4000rpm)
the IT i meant was the Turbo. You mentioned this when you talked about using your 20G on your StarQuest...You said it held its boost all the way till redline... I said of course it would when you run it at high boost. Thats what that turbo is deisnged to do, flow a certain larg CFM (which it can only do at large amounts of pressure). Now ifyou took that Turbo and put it on a 1.6 liter Mazda engine, then run it at 8psi.. what do you think would happen? thats what i meant(im exagerating here.. jsut cause I like to hear myself type.. it keep s me awake after a 12 hour shift, so i can still make it to school in 2 hours..)
okies. off i go.. cool


Tony Blatnica
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Quote:
Originally posted by RTStabler51:
WTF are you asking for?? Thought you were trading the GoCart in on the Audi???? What's the Dealio???


I'm just keeping up on my contour bretheren...and I'm bored, hehe. I am still getting the S4, but they're trying to screw me on the financing part of it cause I banged them on the trade in. I don't even know what will happen, but if they screw around with me much more I'm going to wait till the spring to get the new M3. I'll know by the end of the day what is going to happen...they gave me some bull**** that MidWest America can't approve me after they had told me I would definately, POSITIVELY be approved...so I said thats fine I'll just go through my bank...and then the guy said...no no, don't give up on me yet! I'll try through Audi Financial Services to get you approved, although they usually only accept doctors and lawyers...yade yada" I know he's going to call today and say...Good news! Got you approved, but you're at a bit higher rate." Car salesman are cheap mother @!$*@#!...Do you still want those baffles btw? I got to look around for them but I think they're somewhere in the parents garage.


Big gulps huh? Welp, see ya later
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1. Do you really think the S60 at 10psi could sustain enough airflow (CFM) to supply a 2.5L DOHC motor? IMO it can not. Maybe? if you dropped redline to 5k, but the turbo needs to be choosen to complement the engine design, not vice-versa... The engine is designed with a 4-7k powerband (stock) - it would easily pull past 8k if it held together!!! Putting a turbo that changes the power band to 2-5k (even 3-6k) would be working against it's design and sacrificing it's high rpm breathing prowress. Not to mention the cams!

2. We both agree on the VVNT part (lag time for compressor spin up, etc) - we just are talking in circles here... laugh

3. :p Theoretically of course... wink

4. You missed my thinking. You are implying changing the cams (intake atleast) to have less overlap. That would increase the cost exponentially. I'm talking about having to make do with the longer duration cams the SVT has and making up (compensate for) the lost cfm flow via a compressor with a higher CFM/lower boost map.


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Just an FYI, the 2.5L V6 running at 7000 RPMs, uses ~306CFM at 1 atmosphere. This doesn't take into account the vacuum that is created with "restrictive" intake parts and valvetrain.

To be able to build up 10 PSI in front of this 306CFM air pump, you would need to have a comressor that can produce 10PSI at ~650CFM.

If this figure is WAY off, please forgive me. This was done with experimenting with a precision digital manometer with the battery going out, and a calulator made by Microsoft. smile


-Chris Hightower-
-Hightower Performance Products, LLC

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Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Hightower:
. . .and a calulator made by Microsoft.


Uh oh . . . wink


Kendall
'97 GL Zetec ATX
" Nippy "
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