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Originally posted by Jeb Hoge:
Originally posted by Mysti-ken:
every Iraqi male over the age of 17 has an AK47; implying that they are combatants.
This is where you're continuing to disconnect from the argument. There has been no such implication, except the one you keep attempting to pin on Sandman.
Thank you, but I did understand the subtleties of Sandman's claim - other than to prove that Iraqi insurgents are well armed (no dispute from me) however, I don't see the relevance of the number of weapons when the discussion was about the number of innocents in Iraq.
The number of insurgents is the important number IMO, and Sandman believes the U.S. government is lieing about that.
The only thing I wanted throughout this discussion was a little balance - good wishes for millions of innocent Iraqis along with the good wishes for the soldiers. Why does anyone have a problem with that?
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I'm sorry Davo. Did posting a flag in your original posting mean to you that you can exaggerate as much as you want?
I'm pleased your magic ball lets you see into the future on how this offensive shaped up to be just as dangerous as the attack on Iwo Jima.
Where's your caddy to help you out again on this one?
PS- I don't see you telling Sandman (like you did with me)how personal first hand experience does not count for as much as your devoted study. But then, you do like wild hyperbole.
MSDS, SHO-shop Y, custom 2.5" catback; xcal2; 63mm TB, K&N 3530; Koni struts, Aussie bar; THaines forks, Quaife, SpecII, UR fly; DMD; Nima UD pullies; Stazi brakes; f&r Pole120 mounts. Just a daily commuter car. Silver '98 SVT E0 #3159
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Sandman..your account is just staggering. Impressive.
Those arguing with him, and/or claiming not to be but clearly are nit picking away....you are just not going to come away looking good. Pure, unfiltered, unedited, unsanitized truth is hitting you square in the face.
This outcome will be decided by guys like Sandman and the regular Iraqi that wants peace. Iraqi men are standing in line day after day to join the security forces..being killed at an appauling rate in these lines. Yet they stand in line again each day..3 voluenteers for each position. How will it go in Iraq is unclear, but it is increasingly tiring to listen to the neverending pessimism of the arm chair quarterbacks who characateristically have NO military experience whatsoever. The election is over...how about we all stay positive and let history tell the tale. Beyond complaining, any SPECIFIC comments to improve the end outcome should be forewarded to Mr. Donald Rumsfeld.
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"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)
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Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
...Beyond complaining, any SPECIFIC comments to improve the end outcome should be forewarded to Mr. Donald Rumsfeld.
Or hopefully his replacement. 
JaTo
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I'm OK with that too.. 
1999 Amazon Green SVT Contour (#554/2760)
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)
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OP
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Is there anyone in particular you guys would want to see him replaced with?
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No, haven't really given it much thought. I still like Rumsfelds vision of the army as a special ops rich, highly mobile, high tech but smaller force. But I do think it is likely (outsider viewpoint limitations apply) that some post Iraq invasion aspects could have been better planned...
I really like Tommy Franks, old Norm Schwartzkoff. More "political"..I could probably live with Joe Lieberman believe it or not. I'll think about it more if the slot opens up...
1999 Amazon Green SVT Contour (#554/2760)
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
-Soren Kierkegaard (as posted by Jato)
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Originally posted by Davo:
Is there anyone in particular you guys would want to see him replaced with?
Not sure yet. As a political candidate, McCain comes to mind, but it's too much of a second-fiddle position for him, politically. Good luck getting him to abandon his constituency in AZ as well...
Someone with a more recent military background? I don't think Franks would play ball, politically. I like his style and think he would make one Hell of a SOD, but I can imagine him lining up reporters against the wall for target practice.
Tough call there. I'll have to think about it.
JaTo
e-Tough Guy
Missouri City, TX
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farmers go fishing with hand grenades over there. Pull the pin and toss it in a lake. after the boom, collect the dead and stunned fish that float to the top.
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There are no stupid questions.
There are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.
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Originally posted by Mysti-ken:
Originally posted by svt4stv:
you asked how can Sandman PROVE the CIA is lying. how can a regular person "prove" this? how can anyone "prove" this when the CIA is considered THE "authority" on these figures.
I understand and I agree. The question is: how many Iraqis are insurgents with fingers on triggers? The only number's I've seen are the CIA or CPA ones (5-50k) and Sandman's theory - which is that every Iraqi male over the age of 17 has an AK47; implying that they are combatants. Well, I did the math and asked the question - could there be as many as 4 million Iraqi males shooting at coalition forces?
It doesn't seem plausible to me, but let's accept it for the sake of argument. If there are that many (or even 10%!), doesn't that point to an official deception of incredible magnitude? If someone at the pentagon come out and said that the insurgency is much bigger than we thought - we are now facing millions of hostiles - how long would it take for the American public to force a withdrawal? If I were an American, I think I'd like to know the true answer to that question.
Originally posted by svt4stv:
does anyone have any speculations as to where this conflict (the entire conflict) is going to end up? what the end result will be? i would like to hear some theories as to where this situation will be in 5 years from now. I have no clue. I dont see any good results in pulling out or in remaining. 
According to the Veterans for Common Sense group which is openly against the action in Iraq (and other sources) claim that the insurgency is growing in strength, and as seems clear, not lacking in resources. Their assessment is essentially the same as yours, that it will become increasingly difficult and costly to either defeat the insurgents or withdraw - and they don't think victory is a foregone conclusion.
Your comments remind me of an incident that happened while we were there. Part of an Infantry unit at my base was assigned base security. One day, they had some locals chucking rocks at them. The situation got pretty serious, and a LT was hit in the face with a rock. He fired on his attacker, hitting him in the shoulder with his M-16. Unfortunately for the rock-chucker, the round exited his neck, and he quickly died. The locals were outraged, despite the fact that the LT was only returning fire and we had spent the last 8 months giving them free medical care and various other supplies. They started to make threats, saying that they had weapons we didn't know about and would come and kill us all if we didn't hand over the LT or pay their death compensation (Arab tradition, very different from our culture). We refused and convinced them that attacking us would not be a good idea (by show of force).
Do I think every Iraqi is a potential insurgent? You betcha.
95 Contour SE ATX V6- SOLD
2001.5 VW Passat GLX V6 Tiptronic
2004 Honda VTX 1800N1
There are no stupid questions.
There are a LOT of inquisitive idiots.
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