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Originally posted by PDXSVT:
You were just about to defend your statment and explain how dangerous this campaign is compared to Iwo,
Originally posted by Davo:
Battles always gain importance retrospectively. Whether you approve of the Iraq war or not, history will judge its significance. Until then, I will hold any sacrifice of American life with the deepest appreciation and greatest honor.
Do I need to translate my statement here into something you understand?
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Originally posted by Sandman333:
Funny how that number keeps increasing as time goes on, and also how we hear reports that we have killed 500 here, 200 there, 70 there, and yet that number keeps growing.......
It doesn't take a rocket scientist.
Well I don't know what number you're talking about, but the U.S. government seems pretty consistent with the numbers they're putting out.
But in terms of your second point abut the number of Iraqis killed, you're absolutely right - no rocket science needed ... here's the answer.
Originally posted by Sandman333:
Ever heard of Vietnam? They came up with similar statistics then. And they were just as phony.
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Joined: Jul 2000
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If anything, I'd say you might have underestimated the number of small arms that the Iraqi population in general possesses or has access to.
Don't take my word for it, though. I'm simply reiterating what a friend in MI has told me, in addition to some regulars that have come back stateside...
The place is a f**king dumping ground for Chinese and Russian made equipment, with Iran and some malcontents from Turkey pushing more equipment into the country from the first two mentioned.
I remember being told that hand grenades went for $5 US equivalent and RPGs ran something along the lines of $60 US equivalent...
JaTo
e-Tough Guy
Missouri City, TX
99 Contour SVT
#143/2760
00 Corvette Coupe
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Originally posted by Mysti-ken:
Apparently there are a lot of officials lieing about this.
Dude, it's called spinning. They don't want the public to know how outta control it is. Of course they're gonna publish smaller numbers. "Move along, nothing to see here."...
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Addicted CEG\'er
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Originally posted by 18psi2300:
Originally posted by Mysti-ken:
Apparently there are a lot of officials lieing about this.
Dude, it's called spinning. They don't want the public to know how outta control it is. Of course they're gonna publish smaller numbers. "Move along, nothing to see here."...
word! i dont think even the president believes anything the CIA says anymore. IMO, CIA publicity department=Enron accounting department. My cousin has been in and out of that rat hole since before the "war" even started. he said every classified location he has been at is so dangerous you dont even DARE leave the premisis or you will get shot. they are in an extremely "secure" location and have rockets fired at them frequently which has resulted in some deaths. i think the "enemy" has way more weapons per capita of non-military than were present in Nam. thank God we have far superior technology than our opposition in this incident. as mentioned above weapons are being smuggled in over the porous borders constantly from supportive neighboring countries. insurgents, as mentioned by others, have some remarkably sophisticated weaponry. Owning a gun in the middle east is as normal and practical as owning a hammer in the West. I have 4 hammers and I'm sure almost every CEGer in here has at least one.
you asked how can Sandman PROVE the CIA is lying. how can a regular person "prove" this? how can anyone "prove" this when the CIA is considered THE "authority" on these figures. personally, i would take the word of people who are in the "bush" then the word of bureacrats sitting in a comfy DC office that get their numbers from speculating as to what they "think" the #s are. For all we know, the heads in Iraq are reporting numbers to them and they are simply cutting those numbers down when reporting them to the media. can anyone think of any plausible reasons they would want to do this? 
does anyone have any speculations as to where this conflict (the entire conflict) is going to end up? what the end result will be? i would like to hear some theories as to where this situation will be in 5 years from now. I have no clue. I dont see any good results in pulling out or in remaining. 
Originally posted by Tourgasm:
Sometimes you can mess up a word so bad that spell check doens't know what the hell you're talking about.
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Originally posted by svt4stv:
you asked how can Sandman PROVE the CIA is lying. how can a regular person "prove" this? how can anyone "prove" this when the CIA is considered THE "authority" on these figures.
I understand and I agree. The question is: how many Iraqis are insurgents with fingers on triggers? The only number's I've seen are the CIA or CPA ones (5-50k) and Sandman's theory - which is that every Iraqi male over the age of 17 has an AK47; implying that they are combatants. Well, I did the math and asked the question - could there be as many as 4 million Iraqi males shooting at coalition forces?
It doesn't seem plausible to me, but let's accept it for the sake of argument. If there are that many (or even 10%!), doesn't that point to an official deception of incredible magnitude? If someone at the pentagon come out and said that the insurgency is much bigger than we thought - we are now facing millions of hostiles - how long would it take for the American public to force a withdrawal? If I were an American, I think I'd like to know the true answer to that question.
Originally posted by svt4stv:
does anyone have any speculations as to where this conflict (the entire conflict) is going to end up? what the end result will be? i would like to hear some theories as to where this situation will be in 5 years from now. I have no clue. I dont see any good results in pulling out or in remaining.
According to the Veterans for Common Sense group which is openly against the action in Iraq (and other sources) claim that the insurgency is growing in strength, and as seems clear, not lacking in resources. Their assessment is essentially the same as yours, that it will become increasingly difficult and costly to either defeat the insurgents or withdraw - and they don't think victory is a foregone conclusion.
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Originally posted by Mysti-ken:
Originally posted by svt4stv:
you asked how can Sandman PROVE the CIA is lying. how can a regular person "prove" this? how can anyone "prove" this when the CIA is considered THE "authority" on these figures.
I understand and I agree. The question is: how many Iraqis are insurgents with fingers on triggers? The only number's I've seen are the CIA or CPA ones (5-50k) and Sandman's theory - which is that every Iraqi male over the age of 17 has an AK47; implying that they are combatants. Well, I did the math and asked the question - could there be as many as 4 million Iraqi males shooting at coalition forces?
It doesn't seem plausible to me, but let's accept it for the sake of argument. If there are that many (or even 10%!), doesn't that point to an official deception of incredible magnitude? If someone at the pentagon come out and said that the insurgency is much bigger than we thought - we are now facing millions of hostiles - how long would it take for the American public to force a withdrawal? If I were an American, I think I'd like to know the true answer to that question.
you sir are a fricking dolt, when i tell you that something like 75% of homes in the midwest are armed am i insinuating that 75% of the midwest population are involved in militant goverment subversion? no, i'm saying 75% of homes have a boomstick.
When sandman says every male over 17 he's telling you every male over 17 (for the sake of argument) has a gun. Not every male over 17 is an insurgent.
and if your conspiracy theory was somehow correct you wouldnt force a withdrawl, you'd force a full force military campaign vs. a counter-insurgency.
-Matt
"Pain heals, chicks dig scars, and glory lasts forever!"
will do/pay just about anything for the following parts:
CF sunroof glass replacement
OEM CF trunk
Non OEM style cf or fiberglass hood not the cf1 design
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***this just in from Iraq*** Heyâ?¦check this out! Just had 3 mortars hit near our work place, just shy from our location (Time: 0415 A.M. â??? your time!) The first one hit close to the run way and exploded. No one knew what it was and no â??code redâ? was alarmed, so no one reacted. The second mortar hit the flight line 200 feet south, south-west of our location, exploding with a "pop"â?¦that one did not explode. The third, which landed almost 5 seconds later, was clearly audible, whistling overhead, until it exploded in front of the runway, 200 feet in front of me. If you saw me running, you'd think I was in the Olympics! I dove into a bunker and waited until the "all clear" signal was alarmed. We're ok, in case you're wondering. No one got hurt. P.S. This is what I've always wanted to experience in the Marinesâ?¦but with a weapon in hand! Thank you, Nicholas M. Gallo Airframe and Powerplant Specialist II Q AERONAUTICAL SYSTEMS (well, at least it sounds like he's having fun  )
Originally posted by Tourgasm:
Sometimes you can mess up a word so bad that spell check doens't know what the hell you're talking about.
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Originally posted by Speed Demon:
you sir are a fricking dolt
Let's see if I get this straight. I am the only one so far to use any official U.S. government numbers (CIA and CPA) to demonstrate the size of the insurgency. And what's the response? - "I was there, the government is lieing - just like they did in Viet Nam." So by your definition I guess that means that anybody who believes what the U.S. government says is a dolt.
Originally posted by Speed Demon:
When sandman says every male over 17 he's telling you every male over 17 (for the sake of argument) has a gun. Not every male over 17 is an insurgent.
And your point about the number of guns is exactly what? That one person can own more than one gun? That guns kill people? That sounds like something Michael Moore would say. I thought it was people killed people. Wouldn't that be the number to focus on? That's the point I'm making.
Originally posted by Speed Demon:
and if your conspiracy theory was somehow correct you wouldnt force a withdrawl, you'd force a full force military campaign vs. a counter-insurgency.
MY conspiracy theory!!?? That's Sandmans theory not mine - he's claiming the CIA and the Army are lieing to people about the size of the insurgency. Oh wait - that's not a theory, that's fact - he was there right, so he ought to know if the CIA and the Army are lieing or not.
And if you'd actually read the posts, you'd know that the only 'fricken' point I've tried to make throughout this whole series is this ... we all want the troops to return safely, and today especially, when you say your prayers for the 150,000 soldiers say a prayer for the twenty four million innocent Iraqis who are also in harms way.
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Originally posted by Mysti-ken:
every Iraqi male over the age of 17 has an AK47; implying that they are combatants.
This is where you're continuing to disconnect from the argument. There has been no such implication, except the one you keep attempting to pin on Sandman.
"Think of it, if you like, as a librarian with a G-string under the tweed." Clarkson on the Mondeo.
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