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This is something I find kind of funny about the whole gay marriage issue: So many people against it say it will degrade the meaning of their marriage or make marriages in general mean less. In this day where almost every state has a no fault divorce laws, Who wants to marry a Millionaire, Who Wants to Marry my Dad?, Bachelor, and all the other stupid "reality" shows turning marriage into a 3 ring circus for ratings and people want to whine about homosexual marriages? I think that's just a convenient excuse for a lot of people who actually despise gays but don't want to say it.


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Marriage, the concept and the term, were created long before this country, and have their roots in religion. Let's maintain that seperation of Church and State that Liberals find so important, and not call something that is an abomination in the eyes of the dominant religion in this country by the same name as that of one of the most Holy of religious traditions. It doesn't take away anything from my marriage, just as others divorcing or the idiocy of drive-thru "marriages" in Las Vegas do not. All I'm asking is that you keep Gov't out of religion. Call it something else.

Or are you too bent on forcing your will on everyone everywhere to get past that?

If you want Biblical text to support that God said homosexuality is wrong, I can easily provide it.


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Originally posted by Sandman333:
Let's maintain that seperation of Church and State that Liberals find so important



Don't forget the original liberals like Thomas Jefferson and James Madison.

Originally posted by Sandman333:
All I'm asking is that you keep Gov't out of religion.



And vice versa, suddenly you sound like a liberal.

Originally posted by Sandman333:
If you want Biblical text to support that God said homosexuality is wrong, I can easily provide it.



Only applicable if you believe that an imaginary man in the sky authored it, and that every word is fact. In which case you probably haven't read most of it.

The bible is the most damning autobiography ever written.-Mark Twain


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I wasn't trying to state that religion should dictate Government, rather that Government should not dictate religion. Religion has established the concept of marriage as being between a man and a women for centuries before our nation was formed. Government should not try to change that definition.

I'm not against equal rights for all. Their actions are between them and whatever they call God. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Just don't group me in the same classification as those that practice homosexuality. It is NOT the same, never was, never will be.


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Yes, Thomas Jefferson:


On why we will never be sucessfully invaded:

"Uncertain as we must ever be of the particular point in our circumference where an enemy may choose to invade us, the only force which can be ready at every point and competent to oppose them, is the body of neighboring citizens as formed into a militia. On these, collected from the parts most convenient, in numbers proportioned to the invading foe, it is best to rely, not only to meet the first attack, but if it threatens to be permanent, to maintain the defence until regulars may be engaged to relieve them."
--Thomas Jefferson: 1st Annual Message, 1801. ME 3:334

On the right to keep and BEAR arms:

"None but an armed nation can dispense with a standing army. To keep ours armed and disciplined is therefore at all times important." --Thomas Jefferson, 1803.

"It is more a subject of joy [than of regret] that we have so few of the desperate characters which compose modern regular armies. But it proves more forcibly the necessity of obliging every citizen to be a soldier; this was the case with the Greeks and Romans and must be that of every free State. Where there is no oppression there can be no pauper hirelings." --Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1813.

On mandatory military service for our youth:

"We must train and classify the whole of our male citizens, and make military instruction a regular part of collegiate education. We can never be safe till this is done."
--Thomas Jefferson to James Monroe, 1813.

"I think the truth must now be obvious that our people are too happy at home to enter into regular service, and that we cannot be defended but by making every citizen a soldier, as the Greeks and Romans who had no standing armies; and that in doing this all must be marshaled, classed by their ages, and every service ascribed to its competent class."
--Thomas Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes, 1814.

On a DUTY to keep and BEAR arms:

"The constitutions of most of our States assert that all power is inherent in the people; that... it is their right and duty to be at all times armed."
--Thomas Jefferson to John Cartwright, 1824.

"A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the Body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind . . . Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks."
--Thomas Jefferson, Letter to his nephew Peter Carr, August 19, 1785.



Chicago handgun ban anyone??????

No freeman shall be debarred the use of arms (within his own lands or tenements)."
--Thomas Jefferson: Draft Virginia Constitution with (his note added), 1776. Papers, 1:353


Proof that unarmed populace encourages crime:

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms . . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes . . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."
--Thomas Jefferson, quoting Cesare Beccaria in On Crimes and Punishment (1764).



Now, if you want modern facts to support the above, here you go:

http://www.justfacts.com/gun_control.htm

Should I do James Madison? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?




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"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man." - Thomas Jefferson

You forgot that quote, one that has more bearing on the topic at hand and what he may say. He was a person that knew what it's like to want to marry someone that the government wouldn't allow. What did he do when he didn't like it?? Just what typical republicans say anyone who doesn't like the currant laws should do..... he moved to France


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Originally posted by Swazo:
Just what typical republicans say anyone who doesn't like the currant laws should do..... he moved to France




Now that was just hilarious! Couldn't help but laugh. Another point on this sidebar of Jefferson. In his times, many of his views WERE seen as liberal. It's going to take a while for everyone to adjust to this modern "gay" world, but saying that homosexuality does not have it's place in history is just idiocy. We all know homosexuality was extremely prominant in Greece, Rome, and the Renaissance. It's becoming obvious that there is now a resurgence in allowing those who are gay (I don't belive there's a choice) to come out comfortably and be themselves, and it's just a matter of time for all those opposed to it to simply come around and accept them, and allow them the same freedoms we (straight people) have taken for granted for so long.


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Originally posted by Freakshow:
So many people against it say it will degrade the meaning of their marriage or make marriages in general mean less.



I am more worried that it will degrade the use of the Bible in religion. As seen with sects branching off because their archbishop accepts gay marriages, or priests who are gay. All these involve simple Bible truths that have been changed/ignored to appease the "masses" or themselves.

Quote:

I think that's just a convenient excuse for a lot of people who actually despise gays but don't want to say it.



Being that I think that homosexuality Isn't inherited when you are concieved, I cannot hate the person but sure do the act. And if you think it can be inherited (and hence created by God) then, it sure it odd that peoples God-given conscience is against it.


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The issue is the redefinition of the traditional term "marriage":

Main Entry: mar�·riage
Pronunciation: 'mer-ij, 'ma-rij
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Anglo-French, from marier to marry
1 a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law.

Once this term is redefined, it will open the door for all other types of marriage other than non-tradional(polygamist, etc.).
The argument from the gay activists side is that if you use the term "civil unions", that we are going back to the 1950's with the use of "separate but equal."

I ,personally, am kinda neutral on the issue(but leaning towards civil unions). Having worked many years with foster kids, I found some of the best foster parents were gay, but unable to adopt because of that. I child will always do better(IMHO)with ANY type of stable parents rather than remaining in the foster care system. It's a double edged sword. Just my .02


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Quote:

The issue is the redefinition of the traditional term "marriage":



And perhaps more importantly, the issue is also by whom. I'm not convinced it has to be just those who belong to organized religions who get to do the redefining.

Quote:

Main Entry: mar�·riage
Pronunciation: 'mer-ij, 'ma-rij
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English mariage, from Anglo-French, from marier to marry
1 a (1) : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a consensual and contractual relationship recognized by law.



Interesting selection ... references a contract under law; says nothing about religion. The fact is that for centuries marriage has also been a non-religious institution; whether performed by a ship's captain, the town's mayor (or city hall clerk) the sheriff (insert title of governmental representative here) - not to mention the many marriages performed by some poor chaplain with a shotgun pointed in his general direction.

Quote:

Once this term is redefined, it will open the door for all other types of marriage other than non-tradional(polygamist, etc.).


Non sequiter ... there are no legal polygamists in Utah today; legalizing gay unions in Utah won't change that.

Quote:

The argument from the gay activists side is that if you use the term "civil unions", that we are going back to the 1950's with the use of "separate but equal."



That's a powerful argument ... one that has a couple of recent and (still) sensitive precedents.

Quote:

I child will always do better(IMHO)with ANY type of stable parents rather than remaining in the foster care system. It's a double edged sword. Just my .02



Absolutely. I wish the religious activists bent on stopping gay marriage would spend as much energy towards rooting the pedophiles out of their churches, and towards making the family environment a stable, safe and nurturing place for kids.



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