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Originally posted by Jeb Hoge:
Reagan lost his first debate with Mondale.
but this isn't reagan (whom everyone loved) against mondale (whom everyone hated). these candidates are much closer in voter distribution, bush can't afford to lose the next debate or he's out.
the reason kerry won this debate (by a slim margin) is because he was on the offensive while bush was on the defensive the whole time. plus bush got a little flustered a couple times and lost his focus on the message.
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The next debate could be trouble for Bush. It�s a town meeting style debate, he is terrible at those.
Being on domestic issues, those are normally trouble for Bush.
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Originally posted by JaTo:
Bush came off better than I hoped, but he's still got a ways to go at presenting his ideas to the public. I was getting pretty agitated with some of the constant repetition of points that he made, using the EXACT same verbage every time.
In terms of pure presentation, Kerry nailed this one. In terms of substance, he really tossed out some stinkers in terms of "facts" and "statistics" and was entirely too generic.
Wrong war, wrong place, wrong time. Ouch, twice was enough.
I had trouble getting past kerry's response to question two where he stated "And I will hunt down and kill the terrorists,". IIRC, he's against the death penalty.
As for stats & facts, the war has cost ~125B, not the $200B claimed by Kerry. Bush also dropped it on training of Iraqis, a questionable number, and subjucetive in as much as the level of training remains unknown.
Bush's most serious error was not pouncing on Kerry's support of first the War itself and the support for the troops, yet not supporting the $87B aid package. It was Kerry himself who brought up the body armor issue. Bush should have slammed that right back in Kerry's face.
The transcript is here for anyone who missed it or needs a refference:
Bush / Kerry - 9/30/04 Debate
Mark
Semper Fi
"They've got us surrounded. Poor bastards." -Chesty
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I guess I missed the first 30 mins of it (just watched the replay since i couldn't see it earlier today) so here's my objective take from what I saw:
Bush actually surprised me with his speaking; it seemed a lot better than he has been in the past. Still not very good but much improved.
Kerry did screw up by not looking into the camera...that is poor speech technique for a debate of this importance.
If I had a nickle for everytime Kerry talked about his Vietnam experience and one for everytime Bush tried to throw that "wrong war wrong place wrong time" and "mixed messages" in Kerry's face I'd be on Forbes list of top 10 richest people in the world. It made me sick.
Neither one of them really directly answered most of the questions. They both went off on tangets instead of staying focused.
Bush: Drove home the point about Kerry's statements and the flip flop and how it can affect our troops attitudes towards the war. Brought up a good point which attacked Kerry about not changing your core values to suit what the rest of the world wants. I tend to side with Bush on the subject of unilateral involvement with N Korea but I disagree with not addressing N Korea directly.
Kerry: Fired back very well by basically saying that Bush is being stubborn and refusing to change his views in light of new info. Also, the point he made about North Korea and nukes and how Bush is sending mixed messages by not more actively pursuing that issue yet invading Iraq for WMDS I think really drove a nail into Bush's statements. Also, the point about stopping the spread of Nukes and how Bush has not done a very good job since 9/11 of securing nuclear material.
Bush: Never really answered to Kerry's claims of "more of the same in Iraq" and I didn't really see him say anything indicating how he planned to get Iraq under control. Kerry wasn't a whole lot better on it but at least he laid out SOME ideas to improve things albeit some are already being done. When Bush talked about the war being worth it he showed great compassion and human side while speaking about the woman who's husband died over there that he talked with. Kerry showed no real emotion...big + for Bush there I think.
The Genocide issue they BOTH completely sidestepped and avoided the question because neither wanted to say "Bringing up that issue and the possibility of sending more troops out to another country at this point is political suicide"
Looked like Kerry really got under Bush's skin at times and got him flustered and jumping the gun to fire back instead of waiting for the moderator to let him speak...looked bad for Bush IMO.
Bush BLASTED Kerry with the comment about "Those sanctions on Libya were put in place LONG before I got into office" made Kerry look a bit like an uninformed ass.
Kerry blasted Bush after Bush said "The enemy attacked us" referring to 9/11 and Kerry fired back with "BIN LADEN was the enemy that attacked us NOT Saddam" made Bush look bad.
Overall I think Kerry will gain a lot of ground on Bush after this debate but in reality very little REAL substance came out of it as far as addressing issues. Both of them regurgitated a lot of info again and again and again.
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Originally posted by Trapps:
"And I will hunt down and kill the terrorists,". IIRC, he's against the death penalty.
I wonder if using summits to kill someone falls qualifies as the death penalty.
Last edited by Davo; 10/01/04 03:41 PM.
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Well I don't think I would say Kerry won by a slim margin. Check out the CNN.com poll. Out of 472,000 people he won by 72%. I realize that it's not a scientific poll but 472,000 is alot of people. It's still early and it was only the first debate. Still plenty of opportunities to blow it for either side.
Personally I think Kerry won in almost every point. Bush look flustered at times and I thought he side stepped some issues that needed to be covered. I would have liked to have heard alot more said about what to do with North Korea. Everybody is so concerned with Iraq that we have forgotten about them. That's a big issue with me. They are a bigger threat than Iraq ever was. We know that they have WMDs. Nuclear weapons and chemical weapons. We still don't know if they've actually tested a nuclear weapon. If NK doesn't disarm their weapons then that will mean South Korea and Japan will start working on theirs. Then we would have a full scale nuclear war in Asia. Because honestly N.K. is just crazy enough to use them. I'm not saying we should use force to take them out, I think that would be a suicide mission. But I think more should be done to address the real threat in this world.
Oh and another thing. Why is it that we are allowed to produce new styles of nuclear weapons but nobody else is. I think Kerry made a good point when he mentioned our bunker buster nuclear bomb that is being devloped.
Last edited by maxx_power76; 10/01/04 03:53 PM.
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Originally posted by Jeb Hoge:
Originally posted by JaTo:
Bush came off better than I hoped, but he's still got a ways to go at presenting his ideas to the public. I was getting pretty agitated with some of the constant repetition of points that he made, using the EXACT same verbage every time.
In terms of pure presentation, Kerry nailed this one. In terms of substance, he really tossed out some stinkers in terms of "facts" and "statistics" and was entirely too generic.
My wife said that Reagan vs. Mondale in their first debate went much the same way...Reagan just didn't pull it off. Of course, two debates and a month later, Reagan took 49 states.
Reagan was a better speaker and more lively than Bush will ever be. . .and I'm a staunch democrat wondering why we don't have someone better at the table, but quietly wondering if Bush could pull the next 4 years off. . .
I agree with Davo, or the post-debate link he posted, they kind of both are in a dead lock in terms of the debate, but Kerry kept his composure. . .which is only natural since he was on the offense, BUSH had to defend the past 4 years since that sort of thing has never happened before. . .ugh, let's see how they close. . .
The content was driving me nuts, I eventually just turned down the volume and looked at their facial expressions and gestures, it's the same BullSh#t they've been feeding us forever, and it'll all change when they take office, I can 100% guarantee that. . .
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Originally posted by ssmumich00:
Reagan was a better speaker and more lively than Bush will ever be. . .
I may not have always agreed with Reagan's policies but he was a very good speaker/leader. In times of trouble he could give a speech that would inspire people. Kennedy was that way also, even Clinton at times was quite good at this. I think this is a somewhat important thing that a President needs to be able to do. When things are going badly in the country sometimes the people need a President to give a good "Hooraah" speech that uplifts spirits and gets people motivated again.
Unfortunately, I have never seen Bush deliver a speech like that, and I don't see Kerry being able to do it either. My personal opinion (and not meant to start another flame war) is that these are 2 of the worst candidates in the same election in my lifetime. It just kind of seems pathetic to me that we live in "the greatest country in the world" yet these are the best guys we could find for our President? Scary. I say bring back Crazy Dean and his "YEAHHHHHHHHHH" speeches to add some flavor to the debates! 
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Originally posted by maxx_power76:
Well I don't think I would say Kerry won by a slim margin. Check out the CNN.com poll. Out of 472,000 people he won by 72%. I realize that it's not a scientific poll but 472,000 is alot of people. It's still early and it was only the first debate. Still plenty of opportunities to blow it for either side.
Online polls mean basically nothing. Only people who are motivated (either love bush or hate bush) will go and spend time voting. Most people who felt moderate didn't even bother. I would take the results there with about a half a pound of salt.
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