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Originally posted by BP:
lol @ the bush calvary...
you guys give way to much credit to the bush admin in YOUR interpretation of his actions and the facts as we know it. maybe because you just like him? i could care less how good of a person the cic is as long as they lead effectively and make good decisions with excellent foresight. i shouldn't have to expect less or settle for less.
I've said it once and I'll say it again, I'm not too hot on Bush in regard to some of his policies and beliefs (gay marriage, the environment, etc.). This administration's foreign policy is something that I have found attractive, even though it's been handled roughly in some places.
I'd say this administration has DEFINITELY lead effectively, though foresight hasn't been one of it's hallmarks. What can one expect when the intelligence agency that has fed it and the previous two administrations has been financially gutted and "missed the boat" in terms of effective and accurate information gathering...
Originally posted by BP:
the people who'll defend bush to the end are too egotistical or brainwashed to recognize and admit that we deserve a better plan, better leadership.
Find me someone better, then. While I'm not overly-enamored with Bush or the way he presents himself, I'll do back-flips for most of the staff he's got on board and the no-nonsense way he addresses some of the jackals that are sitting in office in certain European countries today.
Originally posted by BP:
is kerry that person, i don't know. but imo bush hasn't been making the best decisions, plus he doesn't strike me as the sharpest pencil in his admin.
I wouldn't trust Kerry on much, since I can't find anything solid on the guy or where he stands. The guy is a moving target on almost everything, except taxes...
Originally posted by BP:
smh at you who are blinded with war, if you think we can bully terrorism into a thing of the past you're kidding yourselves.
And ignoring the problem or pretenting that it doesn't exist and/or being gullible enough that the UN is the God-given answer to every slight visited upon the world in the form of a terrorist is just as naieve and gullible. I can't STAND the thought of war, however I can bear it better than I can having a group of foreigners with financial ties to a corrupt regime trying to tell US how to handle security matters that have persisted for over a decade. Meeting terrorism and those that harbor or support it HEAD-ON is the only way to minimize it's effects on this planet, as we will NEVER be able to fully exterminate it.
Again, the Iraq invasion stood on it's own merits even if 9/11 never happened. This is a chapter that should have been closed back in '91, but wasn't. With Hussein in power, Iraq was a long-term security risk and one with relatively minimal pain in dislogding. Case closed.
Finaly, answer me this. How many fringe lumatics seem open to negociation on their values? If you can't guess, NONE is almost always going to be the correct answer. If you think terrorism is a passing "fad" that will go away with time and the US turning a blind eye to it, it's you who are sadly mistaken. This is a moderately new fight for the US and it's taking us some time in learning how to best respond to it; we've still got agencies in the DoD that are only now coming out of a Cold War mentality in terms of project funding and operations.
Patience. You will definitely need it as we are in this for the long-haul...
JaTo
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Missouri City, TX
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Originally posted by Davo:
Originally posted by RT and his SE:
The scorched earth policy on everything that the Conservatives on this board take in every one of these threads is so "cut and paste" by now that it just doesn't interest as many people anymore.
LMAO!!!  And what you and the rest of the liberals here say is "so fresh and so clean". That's a good laugh.
No Dave! This is why no one want to come and play.
It's old and tired and to quote BP:
Quote:
your 'i know you are but what i am i' arguments really don't add to the discussion.
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Originally posted by JaTo:
Again, the Iraq invasion stood on it's own merits even if 9/11 never happened.
while pretty much everyone agrees with this notion, it was not presented as a stand alone action. this was directly related to 9/11 many times and even in the same breath over and over and over. it was almost sickening to hear it so much and then to go in and not find the evidence we promised was there to back up the stated reasons. this left even a more bitter taste for most people who bought the president's stance that iraq was preparing to attack the US and was an imminent threat. we've gone over the perceived pluses and minuses so many times i'm exhausted of discussing it. whether invading iraq will pay off for the war on terrorism in the long run is the question. so far we haven't come up with a good plan to solve it, but most conservatives beg for patience which is reasonable. it's just hard to swallow the request for patience when the plan keeps getting restructured. why was this not thought out more thorougly and properly the first time? we have our own military telling us we went into iraq unprepared? why do these things continue to happen?
i think those are the questions that frustrate those who aren't enamored with the bush admins decisions.
Originally posted by JaTo:
If you think terrorism is a passing "fad" that will go away with time and the US turning a blind eye to it, it's you who are sadly mistaken.
that's exactly what i've been saying. but in addition to that i've added that this isn't something that will respond the way we want it to by using unfocused force and overstated reasoning as we've done with iraq. this just adds fuel to their fire and complicates the situation even more for us. that's not rocket science or brain surgery. it seems that so many are stuck in the cold war mentality of posturing and threatening, that we've become very slow to change and develop genuine diplomacy. this goes for the other side too, the US isn't all to blame on this one. but we are the bigger person.
now in light of all of this, i'll admit the bush admin hasn't totally fumbled the ball here. at the same time i don't feel like the best decisions have been made mainly because of the current state of things in iraq and constant re-structuring of how we plan to fix it. from the start it seemed like the plan was to send the troops in, remove saddam from power and we'll figure the rest out once we're there. it was all smiles and waves on 'mission accomplished' day. but this was never an acceptable plan and has proven to have been a sub-optimal strategy.
patience is the definitely warranted, but at the same is it so much to expect our decisions to be thoughtful and well planned? imo our troops shouldn't have to die to make up for mistakes.
'03 Saab 9-5 Aero
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I strongly disagree with those who say the after-effects of the invasion should not be focused on now. Remember Iran? The US forcibly installed the western-friendly Shah, which led to popular uprisings/support of the Ayatollahs/increased radicalism and mistrust of the west throughout the ME.
Now we've forcibly installed a western-friendly government into Iraq, with a set of binding orders/mandates that limit the government's ability to freely set policy. While many of the mandates are necessary, the perception is that the government is a puppet, set up by an outsider. History suggests this percieved excessive outside influence is a major cause of radicalism.
I don't have all the answers for what will work in Iraq given where we are. But what Bremer et. al. have done up to now seems to ignore history.
E0 #36
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So everyone here that is opposed to this war wants Kerry in office. Of which Kerry will not go to war (AS HE STATED) unless he has approval of the UN. So basically we are allowed to engage in war when France says its ok. (look at the past, who continuously has saved France? USA.) Our whole fleet that we have used in past wars and in current wars including the B1, B2, F14, F15 have all been voted against production by Kerry. If we did not have these in our defense department what would we have, good ol' F4's? This guy is a joke. Kerry has said alot in his recent campaign, lots conflicting with things he has said earlier in his campaign's. Look at his actions at when he was a senator, things he voted down then, and is in favor of now.  May god help the US if by some miracle Kerry is voted in.
Jason
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Thank God we have the B1 and B2 to protect us from Muslim radicals. We are so much closer to catching bin Laden and snuffing his movement because our planes are better than his.
Did the superior Soviet machinery win it all for the Soviets in their Afghanistan adventure?
Did anybody else read Georgie Anne Geyer's column this morning? She's usually more conservative than moderate. I doubt Bush will buy her a Christmas card today.
MSDS, SHO-shop Y, custom 2.5" catback; xcal2; 63mm TB, K&N 3530; Koni struts, Aussie bar; THaines forks, Quaife, SpecII, UR fly; DMD; Nima UD pullies; Stazi brakes; f&r Pole120 mounts. Just a daily commuter car. Silver '98 SVT E0 #3159
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Originally posted by PDXSVT:
Thank God we have the B1 and B2 to protect us from Muslim radicals. We are so much closer to catching bin Laden and snuffing his movement because our planes are better than his.
former owner, 95 SE MTX
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Well wouldn't you think its better for our troops to be in the air, than on the ground with all the towel heads that have learned and continuously fight in the sand.
I definetly know its alot more effective to have our attack c130 take out an entire ememy batallion in less than a minute, than have our troops go in to hand to hand combat. I definetly value our troops lives more than that. Or how about our B1 that dropped most of the bombs in the golf war, and our current war, seems more effective to me.
Jason
00 Audi S4, 2.7 Bi-turbo quattro
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Originally posted by tiv:
Originally posted by Davo:
After Serbia, the 1st Iraq war, and after the really spectacular Afghan campaign the US military had the image of a kind of invincibility.
This image was smashed with the pictures of ragtag insurgents victory-marching on the streets of Najaf and Fallujah after forcing the US army to leave their cities.
The Iraq war has proved that the US military power can be resisted, even without the backing of another superpower. (like in Vietnam)
Are you sure this is what you want to see ? Are you sure this is what you want the world to see ?
T.
This is the opposite of correct...yes, what we are doing is PRECISELY what I want the world to see.
US Military before Bush as it relates to middle east...
1) Lebanon, 1983...US Marine barraks destroyed 200+ killed (some my friends off USS Independence). Al Quead opener. We retreated.
2) Gulf war I...good start but Bush listens to UN and fails to deliver death blow. Sadam begins 12 years of open defiance, swindles billions with Frances help, shoots at US warplanes and attempts to kill Bush 41. Response...RETORIC and a few cruise missiles.
3) WTC 1993..let the courts handle it. AlQueda 2..US 0
4) Somolia..AlQueda 3...we haul ass again
5) 1998..US/UN inspectors kicked out of Iraq. We stand around with thumb up ass as middlest laughs at us.
6) Khobar Towers..you know the drill. We do nothing.
Al Queda openly laughing.
7) African Embassy bombings...same AlQueada operatives that later would fly planes into WTC involved. No response...terrorist laughter, boldness, confidence increasing
8) 2000..USS COLE blown up by AlQueda...no response. Now, AlQueda is confident they will get away with 9/11 unchecked, and SAID SO. Sadam, still shooting at warplanes & giving us the finger.
9)...9/11.
BUSH...
Builds coalition, attacks Afganistan. Evicts Taliban, kills/captures 2/3 Al Queda. New elections in a month. Fighting continues but we NEVER run from it.
US fleet closes on Iraq...weapons inspectors back in...Sadam fails to account for WMD that he itemized in 1991. France blocks UN coalition formation as they are making billions from oil for food scam, assures Sadam we will not invade. WE INVADE ANYWAY...find no WMD but more mass graves than expected, expose oil corruption, flatten Salmon pac and Ansar Al Islam terror training camps, capture Sadam and 43 of 55 henchmen, install interim government.
Pakistan gives up AQ Khan nuke program..
Libya folds nuke program..
Saudis come on board and round up/kill hundreds of AlQueda
UN runs after a bombing..
Spain runs after a bombing..
US/UK/Austrailia stand ground and attack again.
....forcing US forces to leave my ass. Our troups went toe to toe, everytime and place. Najaf was a truce...TODAY they are holding anti-Al Sadr demonstrations in Najaf. Fallujia was negotiated by AlAwai....maybe not a tactical victory I grant you but it is not over, we killed 50 goons there a few days ago. For the first time in 2 decades...the middle east knows the US means buisiness. We earned our crediblity with the lives of over a thousand soldiers. It is THIS credibilty that will allow us to deal with the likes of Iran, Syria, N.Korea with a higher likelyhood of success and MAY avoid bloodshead in these countries that would have laughed in our face 3 years ago based on our "old" reputation. Do those coutries hate us more than 3 years ago...maybe a little but not much (they pretty much hated us before). Do they now know we are not screwing around...YES.
So, to the thousand that have died...I salute you.
PS..Do the French dislike us more, since we margialized the already marginal UN, exposed their corruption, and made fun of their accents...SURE! But, who cares!
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"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use."
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There are now MORE uprising and attacks on US troops in Iraq than there has been since the war started.
And fighting in Afghanistan has not slowed down.
Bush doesn't want to leave Iraq or Afghanistan until they practically give their allegiances to the US. Since this is not going to happen ever, we are going to be stuck there fighting people we instigated in the first place.
Just look at what west bank has turned into.
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