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Why are we there again?
I don't usually join the political arena.
Yes Saddam should have been taken out of power.
Should we have been the ones to do it?
9/11 didn't take us to Iraq.
All the Terrorists in the planes were Saudi...
It'll be a long hard road.
People will forget about Iraq, just like
most have forgotten about Afghanistan
(we still have lots of troops there)
My nephew is in the Marines, Unfortunately
he is physically unfit to be in Iraq, but he was
for several months before becoming unable to
continue.
99 Cougar V6 Tourmaline Green: MTX, KKM, Borla Dual...
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Originally posted by BP:
that's not the reason we lost/withdrew from vietnam. we lost and left because of miscalculations that caused extreme casualties and failure to devise a realistic plan to win peace. very similar to iraq...
OK, this is my TOP reason why Kerry should NOT be elected. Because he is of similar philosophy...I do not want somebody planning to win the peace.
WAR is won by winning WAR...
No one EVER wins a war by focusing on winning peace. NO real precident exists for lasting end to war without a victor through negotiation soley. We "revist" the issue again...years later.
Blunt as it sounds...you crush the enemy unambiguosly, break his will to fight, demonstrate YOUR resolve to smash him like a bug! THEN & only then..peace may have a chance. Otherwise, the losing side STILL has will to fight, STILL thinks he may win if he tries this or that, may question YOUR lack of will. Lasting PEACE has unfortunately come at the end of a BEATING.
We would not be in Iraq now had we finished the job in 91 and not worried about "peace" on UN terms. You could even argue that 9/11 my have been avoided had we done then what we are doing now. Had we eliminated Sadam, rebuilt the country (instead of leaving nothing but oil well smoking & a corrupt UN policy that helped impoverish the people), installed a democracy in the heart of the middleast.AND LEFT, we would have made it clear by now we are not occupiers and the inherent, infectious GOODNESS of democracy may have already spread to Iran, Syria, and the hate spewing madrassa schools in Saudi Arabia...replacing a decade of anti-US hate speach/teaching. Think about the 3000 lives saved at the price of 1000 soldiers in those terms. I look at the loss of those brave soldiers now in those terms. The Palestinian conflict is a good example as well...no peace is likely to occur as one side is "artificially" being held back from flatting the other.
We would have won Vietnam had we taken off the gloves, crossed the borders to cut off supply and retreat and scoarched earth as indicated..Focusing on winning the peace would have done nothing to win that war or the present war.
Read "the art of war" sometime & see if winning peace is discussed..
Make no mistake, miscalculations occur in EVERY war...both sides do it! Kerry WILL lose if that's his best pitch BTW. Sadam miscalculated more than we did...he misscalculated that we would not dare come to Iraq without UN blessing and he KNEW that France would prevent THAT from happening...he is now awaiting trial. The side that RECALCULATES, ADJUSTS, and hit again with MORE, wins.
It was time in Iraq for all out war...partial war failed, 12 years on negotiation failed, cruise missile strikes failed. We now know why...Sadam was making billions in UN/French sanctioned "oil for food" scams every year, building palaces & funding terror with the cash. It was a good deal for him & was not going to end but by the sword. But when it is over we WILL have a good shot at peace, of that I am confident.
Still we each pick our candidate based on how we think peace will be achieved....even if war is the path..
Last edited by Dan Nixon; 09/08/04 08:40 PM.
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Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
OK, this is my TOP reason why Kerry should NOT be elected. Because he is of similar philosophy...I do not want somebody planning to win the peace.
WAR is won by winning WAR...
then why does bush talk about winning the peace in iraq? doesn't this go against your stated philosophy?
btw who are we at war with? the iraqi people?
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
We would not be in Iraq now had we finished the job in 91 and not worried about "peace" on UN terms.
you have dubya's daddy to thank for that one.
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
You could even argue that 9/11 my have been avoided had we done then what we are doing now.
complete and utter bs. iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and it's been stated by our own intelligence agencies several times.
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
...replacing a decade of anti-US hate speach/teaching.
and you think what we're doing now is going to change that how?
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
We would have won Vietnam had we taken off the gloves, crossed the borders to cut off supply and retreat and scoarched earth as indicated..Focusing on winning the peace would have done nothing to win that war or the present war.
wouldn't that plan have led to peace? you can have a war that leads to peace right? we bombed the sh!t out of japan and the war was over = peace.
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
Read "the art of war" sometime & see if winning peace is discussed..
i have and it doesn't apply to iraq because we're not fighting the traditional enemy in iraq. we're at war with an ideology, which is a war that i don't beleive can be won with soldiers, guns, and bombs. don't get me wrong, it does have it's place when used correctly.
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
Make no mistake, miscalculations occur in EVERY war....The side that RECALCULATES, ADJUSTS, and hit again with MORE, wins.
bush recalculating (flip flopping)? say it isn't so...
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
But when it is over we WILL have a good shot at peace, of that I am confident.
is peace the objective here or not. please pick a side.
i don't know who has the answers to how we get out of this problem we're in with iraq. i just think we went about it the wrong way to begin with and started so far off course with a plan to win the "war" against terrorism that now we're stuck in an even deeper predicament. i hope whomever is the next president has some long boots on cause the sh!t we're in is deep.
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Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
We would not be in Iraq now had we finished the job in 91 and not worried about "peace" on UN terms. You could even argue that 9/11 my have been avoided had we done then what we are doing now. Had we eliminated Sadam, rebuilt the country (instead of leaving nothing but oil well smoking & a corrupt UN policy that helped impoverish the people), installed a democracy in the heart of the middleast.AND LEFT, we would have made it clear by now we are not occupiers and the inherent,
Not so sure I'd agree. Even if all that happened in '91 we would still be suffering from terrorist attacks today...maybe even more. No matter what we do in Iraq the terrorist threat will continue as more and more muslim extremeists join the terrorist ranks to fight "the meddling American trying to push their Western ways upon our people" Not saying I don't agree that we SHOULD have finished the job, just saying I doubt it would have made that much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. And I also wouldn't be so quick to think like Iran and Syria are all of a sudden our buddies and on our side or anything even close to that. They may be playing that role like their out to stop terrorism in their countries but I for one am not buying it.
Formerly known as Sneaku
I MISS MY BABY!!!
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We all want peace. everyone knows that but unfortunetly (sp?) right now we are fighting a battle to liberate Iraq from terrorists and "hopefully" make it somewhat safer here in the USA. Both my brothers are in the Marines and in fact my brother's batallion just lost 6 Marines in Fallujah on the 7th. He has 13 in his group and they just lost almost 50% of their buddies. Sitting here arguing about who should be president isn't gonna bring back the 1003 troops who died or heal the 7000+ who were seriously injured. It isn't gonna make father or mother who is in mourning, or the child who is asking where is mom or dad any relif. Either way we are gonna be in this war a long time and I hope that whomever gets elected is ready to take on the challenge of protecting this great country. Whether or not you believe that President Bush had a right to go into Iraq or not isn't our choice. He's the Commander-in-cheif and who knows what would of happened if Gore was president. The same [censored] could have happened.
Just rememeber on thing, even if you don't support the president support the troops. They are doing what many are not, defending our freedom.
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Originally posted by BP:
have dubya's daddy to thank for that one.
Incorrect. We have the international coalition to thank for that one. They would have bailed had we gone into Baghdad, and all support for the war would have been lost. Liberals would have hanged 41 had he gone into Baghdad, and now they're trying to hang him for not.
Our policy in 1991 is the same that Kerry wants to establish now -- international approval. Only then it was far less dangerous to have such a policy.
Originally posted by BP:
complete and utter bs. iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and it's been stated by our own intelligence agencies several times.
That's not his point. Had we shown the world that we are serious about terrorism (meaning committing ground troops and major military campaigns to the cause), it's possible the planning of 9/11 would have been disrupted. But like has been said, we have to be right 100% of the time, the terrorist only have to be right once.
Originally posted by BP:
and you think what we're doing now is going to change that how?
I don't care if the rest of the world hates us. When they lose respect for our power is when they start coming after us. The French hate us, but their respect for our power keeps them from doing anything to us.
Originally posted by BP:
i have and it doesn't apply to iraq because we're not fighting the traditional enemy in iraq. we're at war with an ideology, which is a war that i don't beleive can be won with soldiers, guns, and bombs. don't get me wrong, it does have it's place when used correctly.
So you say above that Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11 but here you say we're fighting an unconventional enemy's ideology? That's pretty contradictory. I agree, we're at war with an ideology. This is an ideology that Saddam Hussein's Iraq facilitated. That's why they had to be eliminated.
Originally posted by BP:
bush recalculating (flip flopping)? say it isn't so...
Changing strategy is far different from changing opinion on that strategy.
Originally posted by BP:
i don't know who has the answers to how we get out of this problem we're in with iraq. i just think we went about it the wrong way to begin with and started so far off course with a plan to win the "war" against terrorism that now we're stuck in an even deeper predicament. i hope whomever is the next president has some long boots on cause the sh!t we're in is deep.
What would you have done?
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Bush is FOCUSED/plans on winning the war...again, peace is possibly "won" after that..secondary (but important).
9/11...read what I said. I was not refering to who planned 9/11, I was pointing out that as a result of a failed, incomplete Iraq intervention in 1991 we may have missed a chance to plant a democratic notion in "the heart of the beast" that may have SPREAD to areas that WERE involved a decade later in 9/11 planning. It is my FAITH in a representative gonvernment and the freedom it brings, of capitalism and the prosperity it brings, that leads me to the conclusion that it WILL ultimately succeed even in the middle east. Not exclusive at all with the muslim religion...just a different flavor.
If you have no such faith, you will not believe this workable..
We can thanks Dubyas dad...for bowing to the damn UN, as Kerry wants to do now. It was not his dad's idea to hold back..
Right about bombing Japan....win the war THEN win the peace..my point exactly.
I have picked a side....plan to win the war. Win the war to win the peace. Whereas..plan to win the peace = failure. Perhaps I was unclear...are you not getting the distinction??
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Originally posted by BP:
Originally posted by Dan Nixon:
Make no mistake, miscalculations occur in EVERY war....The side that RECALCULATES, ADJUSTS, and hit again with MORE, wins.
bush recalculating (flip flopping)? say it isn't so...
Give me a break...adapting/changing wartime strategy is NOT equivalent to flip floping in the John Flippin' Kerry sense.
Massive intell cuts bill...I'm for intell!
For patriot act...against patriot act!
For no child left behind...against same!
For the 87 billion...against same! (I was for the 87 billion before I voted against it")..
Cambodia...yes (seared into my memory)...well, no I guess not.
"Knowing what we now know, I would still have gone to war in Iraq".....""wrong war, wrong time"
Still...unbelieveable.
And further, Americans are on to him and he is going down.
1999 Amazon Green SVT Contour (#554/2760)
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Originally posted by BP:
then why does bush talk about winning the peace in iraq? doesn't this go against your stated philosophy?
There are many different kinds of peace. Without getting into a philosophy discourse here, there can exist a peace that is found on the other side of war; unfortunately this is the only way the Iraqi people will find their particular brand of peace.
The Iraqi people aren't fools; they know there will always be someone around to fight with if they so wish (each other, Israel, Iran, etc.). Despite this, the peace that will some day be afforded them has afforded the US with the certainty that the Hussein regime no longer is in ANY position to threaten or pretend to threaten the US or US interests.
Originally posted by BP:
btw who are we at war with? the iraqi people?
Yes and no. Some Iraqis are waging an insurgency against the US and the new Iraqi government. Others are extremists that have decided to "join the party"...
Originally posted by BP:
complete and utter bs. iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and it's been stated by our own intelligence agencies several times.
I don't think that is his point, but I'll let Dan answer that one.
Originally posted by BP:
and you think what we're doing now is going to change that how?
We've failed on more than just a few accounts in winning over the population; some of the dipsh!ts in command and some of our misguided and foolish troops have helped this along, in conjunction with the one-sided media coverage on Iraq. However, there are thousands of troops that maintain friendly and cordial contact with the Iraqi population (at least those that aren't shooting at them).
There's always going to be a civilian that gets in the way of the bad guy and the good guy shooting at him; given this, there will always be a civilian element that will hate the occupying force, even if they are there to "liberate" the folks from their oppressors...
Regardless, this doesn't change the fact that the US is doing more for the Iraqi people in terms of aid and support than any Islamic militia or radical organization that's been lopping heads off of people and indiscriminitely killing folks with bombs and the like.
Originally posted by BP:
i have and it doesn't apply to iraq because we're not fighting the traditional enemy in iraq. we're at war with an ideology, which is a war that i don't beleive can be won with soldiers, guns, and bombs. don't get me wrong, it does have it's place when used correctly.
Sun Tzu's fundamentals are still there. Countering an ideology is much more difficult than gunning for a "traditional" enemy; it takes much more time, care and effort. The fact is that one has to use the soldiers, bombs and guns in the first place to establish a cornerstone to where we can work with those of a like mind; those that wish for something other than a fundamentalist existance that permeates terrorism, hatred and ignorance.
Originally posted by BP:
bush recalculating (flip flopping)? say it isn't so...
There is a marked difference between adjusting one's strategy or tactics and wholesale dumping a problem to the ground to appease the naysayers, who for the most part consist of certifiable morons who didn't want us going into Iraq in the first place.
Originally posted by BP:
is peace the objective here or not. please pick a side.
i don't know who has the answers to how we get out of this problem we're in with iraq. i just think we went about it the wrong way to begin with and started so far off course with a plan to win the "war" against terrorism that now we're stuck in an even deeper predicament. i hope whomever is the next president has some long boots on cause the sh!t we're in is deep.
The fatalism you exhude is simply astonishing. The blinders that the media has on the bulk of the US population simply frightens me beyond description. Our efforts in Iraq and against terrorism overall haven't been the best they could have been, but they are a FAR cry from being anywhere near the abject failure that they are constantly pegged as. We've got RESULTS; Libya dropping everything they had and held on to for years and wanting to rejoin the civilized world, Iraq slowly but SURELY evolving into something other than a totalitarian blight in the Middle-East, N. Korea backing off their rhetoric and coming to their senses a bit (God knows how long that will last, though), Iran submitting to IAEA inspections (yes, I'll admit they are playing us and everyone else for fools on the nuke issue, but such is the game), somewhere around 50-75% of the Al-Qaeda leadership dead or captured....
The fact is that you can second-guess and "politic" yourself into paralysis on the world stage today trying to appease everybody; it seems many liberals would prefer this method of [sarcasm]"protection"[/sarcasm] to the point where is imperils the US to those that WILL take advantage of this type of thought. Why? It makes them "feel" better and "feel" safer; consensus alway has and always will do this for people.
Half-assing it just so we make everybody happy is about the worst thing we can do to a bunch of absolutists whose sole goal is to see the Western powers fall. To this day I take minor objection at some of what we have done, but overall I think the Bush administration has handled itself very well against the challenges that it has been put up against.
JaTo
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Missouri City, TX
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lol @ the bush calvary...
you guys give way to much credit to the bush admin in YOUR interpretation of his actions and the facts as we know it. maybe because you just like him? i could care less how good of a person the cic is as long as they lead effectively and make good decisions with excellent foresight. i shouldn't have to expect less or settle for less.
the people who'll defend bush to the end are too egotistical or brainwashed to recognize and admit that we deserve a better plan, better leadership. is kerry that person, i don't know. but imo bush hasn't been making the best decisions, plus he doesn't strike me as the sharpest pencil in his admin.
smh at you who are blinded with war, if you think we can bully terrorism into a thing of the past you're kidding yourselves.
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