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For my $.02 here, I see not only 9/11 as significant, but also the WMD claims, the Al-Qaeda/Iraq claims, and the neat little thing Bush did a couple of years back with the "extra tax refund" which turned out to be an advance on our existing refunds. I don't appreciate being intentionally misled by my elected government officials. Tell me the truth, and let me decide how to handle it.

Oh, wait. I have an idea. Let's dispense with the voting charade, and just have the Supreme Court decide who wins from the get-go? Oh, that's right. They already beat me to it a few years back....



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Originally posted by zenboy:

and the neat little thing Bush did a couple of years back with the "extra tax refund" which turned out to be an advance on our existing refunds.




That makes PERFECT sense... b!tch and moan because you actually got money back, something that NEVER would've happened under Gore. Who cares what they label it?

Quote:

Oh, wait. I have an idea. Let's dispense with the voting charade, and just have the Supreme Court decide who wins from the get-go? Oh, that's right. They already beat me to it a few years back....






Boy, people just never seem to understand the way the world works, do they?

America has an electoral college... America has to have a President... supreme court ensures that America has said President... recount after recount produced a 537 vote victory for GW, validating the decision of the Supreme Court.

Edumacate yourself, boy.


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Originally posted by mbTDI:
Edumacate yourself, boy.




Nice. We've graduated from sharing our opinions on politics to insulting each other?

Think I'll check out of this discussion.



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Originally posted by zenboy:

Think I'll check out of this discussion.








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Originally posted by JVT:
Please, name things that the President was directly responsible for that made the country worse off. (keep in mind we're talking if 9/11 didn't happen, so budget deficit aside)

-J




I got one:

Patriot Act

Quite simply, the most intrusive, rights abolishing legislation ever signed by a President into law. There's nothing patriotic about it whatsoever. And Bush wants it renewed again because of the inherent time limit -- remember the State of the Union address?

I'm not excited about any of the 'choices' for President.

-Lance


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But it's politics, Lance, and more often than not its a vote for the lesser of evils.

Unless you voted for that porn star for Governor of Cali, that could've been beneficial.


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Originally posted by Lance Kinley:
Originally posted by JVT:
Please, name things that the President was directly responsible for that made the country worse off. (keep in mind we're talking if 9/11 didn't happen, so budget deficit aside)

-J




I got one:

Patriot Act

Quite simply, the most intrusive, rights abolishing legislation ever signed by a President into law. There's nothing patriotic about it whatsoever. And Bush wants it renewed again because of the inherent time limit -- remember the State of the Union address?

I'm not excited about any of the 'choices' for President.

-Lance




In 2+ the odd years of it's existance, do you have any concrete examples of an individual being harmed substantially by the act?

Clearly, SOMETHING needed to be done to improve intel agency capability to monitor terrorist suspects....some type of compromise with "pure privacy" rights. If certain aspects of the act go TOO far (which are by nature likely in such a broad reform) then this needs to be demonstrated by the judical branch to congress so that they can revise the legislation. Instead of just making it a political issue...The executive branch should not have to do EVERYTHING..


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/off topic/

first off we would never if our rights have been abused or trampled on because the gov isn't required to get a warrant or advise us if we've been investigated with or without cause. do we know how the information they collect will be used or when? no. just because there may not be any substantial/specific cases we know about doesn't mean it won't or hasn't already happened.

i agree that some provisions of the patriot act can be beneficial in helping to combat terrorism, BUT i think the recommendations by the 9/11 panel and better communication between intelligence agencies can accomplish the same means to the end without expanding the patriot act.

expanding the current set of powers to allow even more 'spying' on regular people and no limitations or explanations on how the additional provisions will be implemented has to be troubling to anyone who's researched it. the only answers to these questions from our gov come in the form of 'classified' or double talk. if we don't know how it's to be used how can we not fear it's potential for abuse?



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A guy asked me one time if the country was better off now than before Bush. Before I could answer that, I had to establish what the country was like before Bush. This is what I compiled:

Let's first consider the condition of the country BEFORE Bush.

1) The President was impeached for lying under oath to the American public, on national television.

2) Terrorists attacks on the US go unanswered. USS Cole, World Trade Center, Various US troop and government locations around the world.

3) Major cuts in intelligence agencies. Rules put in place to prevent sharing of information.

2) Corporate corruption was going unchecked and thriving. Remember Enron, WorldCom, Tyco, Arthur Anderson? ( Full list HERE. )

3) The stock market experienced unprecented growth that can be attributed to an unhealthy technology/internet boom, along with the above corporate misconduct. A boom that was based on extremely poor business models for internet businesses that had no product and no profit. A boom that was based on inflated earnings.

4) The job market had crested during the last year of the Clinton era (2000).

5) The tech bubble burst in '00. Notice the drop in NASDAQ:



6) The Consumer Price Index was on the rise from '98-'00.



7) Employment Cost Index (mostly benefits) rose dramatically from '98-'00.



8) Import Prices rose dramtically from '99-'00.



Now, let's look at what happened during Bush's tenure:

1) Recession offically began in 2/01, 2 months after Bush took office.
2) World Trade Center attacks, 9/11/01.
3) Corporate scandals along with 9/11 fuels the recession.
4) To help spur the economy, Bush cuts taxes.
5) Tax cuts in mid '03 drops unemployment.



6) Record low interest rates fuel housing boom and economic recovery.
7) US attacks the Taliban and removes them as the official government of Afghanistan.
8) 3/4 of all major Al Quaida officers have been captured or killed, Bin Laden is still on the run.
9) US removes Saddam from Iraq after 12 years of sanctions/resolutions.
10) Columbia explodes.
11) Bush proposes a new space inititive, (although I admit is underfunded).
12) Lybia and Pakistan give up WMD programs and help with terrorism.
13) Oil for Food scandal that involves the UN and various anti-Iraq War countries.
14) Major intelligence failures identified in the CIA and FBI.
15) Gross National Product sees large growth since '03.
16) Over 1 million jobs added since '03.

So, to answer your question, is the country any better off than before Bush? I would say, No, it is not. Is that Bush's fault? NO IT IS NOT.

The real question could be, was the country in such great shape before Bush? I would say NO. (Actually, while digging all this info up, I was suprised at the economic indicators leading up to the recession.)

Could have Bush prevented many of the economic and terror tragedies during his tenure? NO.
Has Bush been able to limit the damage from these events? YES.


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could bush have done a better job is the question. it can only be answered by your perception of the person.

Originally posted by cpurser:

8) 3/4 of all major Al Quaida officers have been captured or killed, Bin Laden is still on the run.




where the heck does that number come from? how do they know how many officers there is? i think it's BS and just sounds good.


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